Episode 85: A Penny for your Thoughts

You're listening to Demand and Disrupt, the podcast for information about accessibility, advocacy, and all things disability. Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast. I'm your host, Kimberly Parsley.

And I'm your co-host, Sam Moore, here along with Kimberly in our respective D&D towers trying to stay cool in the midst of— well, by the time this publishes, it may be, you know, it may be a thing of the past. Hopefully it will be. But this Heat advisory makes it feel like July in September here, Kimberly.

It does. And I need to apologize to the fine folks if you can hear my air conditioner running in the background. I'm out in here in the very swanky D&D Towers, uh, but all 50 floors of it, right? I know, right, right, uh, 50 feet of it. Um, if I turn this air conditioner off for 5 seconds, then it just gets super hot. So I apologize.

That heat will kick in, you know, quick as a wink.

So it sure will.

Now I will say one thing, folks. If you can hear Kimberly's AC, you've got better hearing than me because I can't.

So, well, I'm sorry for the, the recording quality this time, but it's hot out there, y'all. I hope everyone's staying safe.

And as long as we can hear you, Kim, because we want you to be comfortable because If you start overheating and getting uncomfortable, then, then you're going to be a grouch.

And, you know, really am. Yeah, we all know how that goes. Yeah, exactly.

And we don't want you to be a grouch, Kimberly.

I don't want it either, because, Sam, guess what we're going to talk about today?

Drum roll.

We are talking about money, money, money. I am telling you, I am joined today. My interview guest is Jordan Pennington, and she is with the Kentucky State Treasurer's Office, and we are going to talk about ABLE accounts, which are also known as STABLE accounts here in Kentucky. We're going to talk about— they are accounts set up for people with disabilities, and we're going to talk about who's eligible, what the benefits are, how you get signed up, all kinds of things. It sounds like a great idea.

Now, did you and Jordan break out into that legendary Pink Floyd song?

We did not, shockingly. We did not.

Gosh, I know it was tempting, even though— I mean, money is the main lyric in there, but he says a, you know, he says a few other words here and there.

Well, I, I believe, I believe so. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, yeah, so we are going to talk about those accounts. And one of the things— I mean, those accounts can be used for so much stuff. And one of the things I was thinking, I was like, okay, if I signed up for a Stable account. I was like, you know what? I could maybe use that account to sign up for a lot of, a lot of subscriptions and services that I don't have now because I don't want to sign up for them and then forget about them. But I would— what if I signed up for all my subscriptions in one place? Like, there's this new app called WhisperFlow.

WhisperFlow. That's a new one on me.

It's like a dictation app for your phone and your PC, I think.

Oh, it works for laptops too?

I believe so.

Yeah.

And then also, what's the other one I was— oh, Aira. Do you know what Aira is?

I've heard of Aira.

Yeah, it stands for something that I can't remember. I'll link to it in the show notes though. And it's— you call a An agent, an Aira agent, and they can look through your phone and tell you what, like, what am I holding? You know what?

Oh, like if you're holding a bottle, it can read, you know, the agent can read you the label and that sort of thing.

Exactly. Yeah, that kind of stuff. And I do not have a subscription, but I would like to. So I was thinking about, so Sam, if, if someone said, hey, here's a way that you could use tax-free So tax-free. So that's one of the benefits. What might you get?

Oh gosh, like anything for tax-free, you mean?

Oh yeah, anything.

Anything tax-free.

Yeah.

Oh gosh.

Anything that betters your quality of life. Put it that way.

Oh goodness. I don't know. Maybe a mansion on a hill because I wouldn't have to worry about income tax, you know.

I believe you have to have the money to put into the account.

That's the only bad thing, isn't it? Yeah. You got to have the money to invest in it to begin with. Yeah, let's say, you know, I know what a lot of people in my family and friends department would say. They would, you know, get all the— they would refuel their tank, their gas tanks, as often as they could while it was still tax-free.

Well, that is a big— yeah, I didn't think about that because, you know, I don't drive.

Yeah, yeah. Like if that said, you know, gas is only going to be tax-free for like a month, what have you. They would just, they would keep refueling as often as they could, even when it didn't really need it.

You know, I think you could maybe put money in to pay for like, uh, to pay for, um, like an Uber driver, things like that. I think there's—

Oh yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, when you, especially when you make trips and you need to go or want to go somewhere on a moment's notice and you have to call an Uber. Yeah, yeah, that, that's something I would definitely, uh, benefit from and utilize.

Yeah, and I mean, you were telling me before that apparently you start talking to Santa pretty early.

And yeah, so Santa made a surprise appearance because I thought he was gonna— I thought he was occupied at the North Pole this time of year because he sort of anticipates the, the kiddos' requests and stuff. But, but he snuck in one day earlier, I guess a couple days within the past few weeks, and started dropping hints that, that he thinks I might need some Meta glasses, Kimberly. Oh, well, and I told Santa that, that my friend Kimberly used Meta glasses.

I do.

And really rather enjoyed them. And I told them that, you know, I knew that one of the primary uses you had for them was tracking your ornery dog, Biscuit.

Yes. Yes, I do. I find Biscuit. I find what is Biscuit tearing up right now? Yeah, I use them. Actually, I use them to call Ira that I was just talking about. Yep. You can call Ira through your Meta Glasses. And so I use them.

Also, you can use— you can like give it a— is it an audio thing? Like you say, call Ira?

I think you can do Be My Eyes that way, which is another similar service. But I think with Aira, you have to connect on the phone and then they get on the camera. That's the way I do it, which doesn't mean that's the only way to do it. That just means that's the way I do it. Someone can— someone may know different, so I may be— don't rely on me for the best info, y'all.

Kimberly, you're supposed to know everything, you slacker.

I know, I know. But anyway, there are better, like, a blindness tech shows out there than, than me for, for that kind of thing. But now I do know that you can just use your glasses and say, look, like, hey, Meta, just in case I don't want to trigger anybody's glasses, uh, hey Meta, tell me what I'm looking at. It's like, look and tell me what this is, you know.

Look and tell me something. You know, you might have to, um, or I guess you could turn your head in different directions and ask like, Meta, Can you see this or can you see that?

Oh, I will tell— yes, you could do that. I will tell you a feature I just found on the Meta glasses that I'm really enjoying is conversation. Oh, conversation?

Yeah.

Yes. Conversation boost.

Oh.

So it's like when you look right at someone, it like gets louder right there when they're talking so you can hear what they're saying in like loud restaurants and things.

Okay. So like, um, it, it magnifies the voice of whoever you're sitting with.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

So that you can hear it better. Yes. That can, that can definitely come in handy. And, you know, like I said, when everybody and their brother's in that restaurant and maybe the acoustics aren't the greatest and—

Yeah, I was in a, uh, I was in a, a Zoom training last week. And so there was a, we, my team was all in a conference room and we had on the big TV, we had, you know, the Zoom training, but there was something on the training that was not— it was just text. And so I had on my Meta glasses, and when I would look at one of my team members, they were reading to me what the visual things that I couldn't see said.

Oh, interesting. And I guess, you know, obviously you could probably use your Meta glasses to like help you read menus and that sort of thing.

Yep.

Which, which can really come in handy.

It will for people who actually go out. I'm sure it would, but I haven't tried that because I don't really know.

You're not the most, you're not the most frequent diner outer, are you, Kim?

I'm not. I am not. No.

But yeah, folks like me that really do enjoy it, that, uh, that would really open up a, a brand new world for me. So maybe Santa knows what he's talking about when he thinks I need these. These Meta glasses.

There you go.

I'll probably use them in ways that, that I'm not even considering right now.

So. That's true. And you know that I saw an article that I was— it's thought-provoking. So let's, let's provoke some thoughts here, Sam.

Okay. I'm all about provoking thoughts, especially on a podcast.

I saw an article that said Nearly 7% of US disposable income comes from Americans with disabilities.

Ah, so 7% of the money spent, or thereabouts, in the United States is spent by those with disabilities. Yeah.

And so there's a couple of ways to look at that. Number one, we always hear that number of a quarter of all Americans have disabilities. So 7%, you know, of disposable income, I guess that does make sense.

Yeah, I mean, I guess it shouldn't be surprising. Like I said, nearly 25% of the people out there have some sort of disabilities, and they all have, you know, money that they spend that those without disabilities don't need to spend on things like Adaptive equipment and assistive technology and things to, things to help us navigate more or less.

Yeah.

And well, and also like the Meta glasses, those, those aren't, you know, disability-only items. Those are—

Well, that's true. Yeah. Mom was— yeah, Mom and Santa Claus, both of them. They were both telling me—

Because they are absolutely not the same person.

Oh, no, of course not. Never. Not, not even close. But they were both telling me they'd heard instances of people who were fully sighted that, that use Meta glasses.

Oh yeah. Oh, absolutely. My husband has a pair of Meta glasses.

Oh, Michael uses them too?

He does. Yeah.

Okay.

He actually has his, uh, prescription lenses in Meta glasses.

Okay. So you and, uh, you and Michael match when you both have them on?

Well, I think they look different. I think I think they look different.

I think mine and his—

yeah, I think they look different.

Um, that's right. His are probably more, maybe a little more, uh, masculine, perhaps.

Probably. You know, I don't think they have any that are like feminine/masculine necessarily. They're both sort of—

they're both flexible, all, all the models.

His are better than mine because he's, he got, he's got the Gen 2, whereas mine are like the original Gen 1 ones.

Okay, so he's got the advanced Meta Glass.

He does. He does have those. So we, we buy those. And I mean, there's, there's all kinds of things like for people with disabilities, a massage. I think I've mentioned a massage for some people might be a luxury, but for someone who deals with chronic pain, that's a necessity.

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. There's a difference. Yeah. I mean, is the massage just strictly for pleasure or is it Is it for—

Right, so you can get out of bed.

Or is it for essential comfort? Yes.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I mean, there's, there's those things. I mean, disability is expensive, so there's a lot of stuff we have to—

Like we said, wheelchairs and maintenance of those wheelchairs, that, that adds up. And, um, and then there's those, um, that do wheelchair athletics, like, you know, our man David Hartsek that we had on this show a little bit ago.

Yeah, there's— I mean, so, and I think what this article was saying was that it is a—

it is a—

people with disabilities, it's a growth market and it is an underserved market. Like, people just aren't— companies are not tapping in to basically creating enough stuff of what we need.

So in other words, those companies may be missing out on a lot of potential clients.

They're missing out because I think, and you and I, when, you know, we talked about this, almost 7% of US disposable income is from people with disabilities. I mean, I thought, well, that can't be right because people with disabilities are poor.

Yeah, but I'll tell you though, it's funny. with 25% of the people having some sort of disability, that has a lot to do with it. And plus, there are sources for loans, as we were talking about off the air here, Kimberly. The Apple Action Assistive Technology Loan Fund is something very important to keep in mind for people here in the Commonwealth that are in need of— assistance in purchasing, uh, those special devices that they may need, like a computer or JAWS screen reading software, what have you.

Yeah, I believe even up to, even up to like a, a wheelchair accessible van, right? You know?

Yeah. So you, even if you don't have the money now, you can still purchase the equipment perhaps with their help, and then, um, pay the money back to them when you're able, within, within a certain time frame. You know, I think it's generally 3 to 4 years is what I've had. And we've had great guests like Ryan Creech, and, and maybe I think you've talked to one other that, that addressed the Appalachian Assistive Technology Loan Fund. And, and so it can be a, a real godsend for a lot of people. And you can, uh, you know, a lot of times you can pay off these loans with little to no interest, which that's also icing on the cake.

It is. It is. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of work can be done from home. So that's very important for people in our community. So a lot of times they need stuff for, you know, to help with their jobs. And a lot of times we know we end up buying that stuff ourselves for various reasons. We end up buying it for ourselves. And so you could get your assistive technology that way. And then when you're earning the money, you put that money in a stable account, which of course—

There we go. Which, that's our focus of attention today, isn't it?

It is.

Nice tie-in there, Kimberly.

Oh, that was impressive, if I do say so myself. That was impressive.

I'm telling you, you're not a Johnny-on-the-spot, but maybe you're a Jeannie. Jeannie-on-the-spot.

I came full circle with that one, didn't I? That was—

yeah.

You did. And that wasn't even planned or rehearsed or anything.

Nope, nope, it sure wasn't.

But anyway, the website, gang, is aatlf.org if you want to learn more about the Apple Action Assistive Technology Loan Fund and how it might— could be put to work for you.

There you go.

Great, great. Well, Sam, since we're talking about money, I think that you should give me some.

Oh, well, I'll tell you what, when I win the lottery, Kimberly, I will. I will give you $5.

Oh, $5. $5.

That's better than— that's better than none.

And, um, you know, I am clearly talking to the wrong, uh, Moore in the family. That's what I'm— I am clearly talking to the wrong Moore.

I'll tell you what, the next time Santa Claus makes an appearance, I'll tell him that you're in need of some money. And I'll tell Santa to go. I don't know your exact address, Kimberly, but I know which road you live on. So I'll tell him the road, and I'm sure he can figure it out from there because Santa's a pretty smart guy. And I'll tell him to hook you up.

Alrighty. Well, gang, get ready to learn about, uh, some options for your money with the, uh, stable accounts with my interview with Jordan Pennington.

I am joined today by Jordan Pennington, and she is with the Kentucky State Treasurer's Office, and she is going to tell us all about stable accounts, which I have wondered about for a good long time. So I am thrilled to have her joining us today. Jordan, welcome to Demand and Disrupt.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here and to be able to share about ABLE accounts.

Wonderful.

Now tell me, tell us about yourself.

Yeah, so my name is Jordan Pennington. I'm a Rockcastle County native. I work at the Kentucky State Treasurer's Office. I serve as the Communications Director and also the STABLE Kentucky Director.

Wonderful, wonderful. And you're working on, what did you say, your master's degree?

Is that right? Yes, yes, I am. I'm currently getting my master's in public administration through EKU. So I'm just really excited to continue growing my career in public service.

Wow, that sounds exhausting working full-time and going to school full-time.

It can be a lot, but—

I bet.

Well, thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to chat with us. So tell me, what are ABLE accounts.

Yeah, so ABLE is the national term. The term in Kentucky we use is a Stable Kentucky Account. It's a savings and investment account for individuals with disabilities to be able to save and invest without losing their important benefits like SSI or Medicaid. It's really just all about financial independence and greater financial security for the individual.

Okay. Are they new?

Have they been around a while?

Yes. So the Achieving a Better Life Experience Act was passed through Congress in 2014, and then it was enacted in Kentucky in December of 2016. So we're coming up on our 10-year anniversary in December. But our biggest problem is that a lot of people just aren't aware that these accounts exist.

True.

True that.

Now, Achieving Better Life Experiences, is that what you said?

Yeah, yeah, that's the title, Achieving a Better Life Experience Act.

Because they do love their acronyms, don't they?

Yes, they do. They get confusing sometimes.

Excellent.

So you told us there essentially is no difference between an ABLE account, which we might hear about in the national media, and a STABLE account. STABLE is just what we call it here in Kentucky, is that right?

Correct. Each state sort of has their own. We're actually in partnership with Ohio, and they have several other states in partnership with them. So they're all called STABLE through Ohio.

So in partnership with Ohio, what is that about and why is that?

Yeah, so Ohio was one of the first, I believe actually the first one to start up their ABLE program. And so they just already had all the resources available. And so without duplicating for extra money, we were able to just partner with them to expand our resources. And a lot of other states are doing that as well. I believe Georgia is a partner state and Virginia as well. There's several others.

Okay, but everything that we would do here in Kentucky would be overseen through the State Treasurer's Office, is that right?

Correct.

Yes, in Kentucky.

In Kentucky.

Gotcha.

Okay. And Tell me who's eligible for an ABLE account or STABLE account.

Yeah, so individuals are eligible if their qualified disability began before the age of 46. And this is actually a big jump that happened this year. It's called the ABLE Age Adjustment Act, and it passed this year, but before it was previously 26. So your disability had to begin before 26. but now it's 46. And then also if you receive like SSI or SSDI, you're usually automatically eligible. And then if you don't have either of those, you can also just get a signed diagnosis form from your physician.

And so what diagnosis, diagnoses might we be talking about?

Yeah, so it's a very wide range. It's basically just anything that limits your daily life.

Okay, so it could be multiple sclerosis or, you know, things like that?

Yes, it could be mental disabilities or physical.

Okay, and so what can these accounts be used for?

Yeah, so with these accounts, you can use your money for actually a very broad range of qualified disability expenses. So you can use the money for anything that improves the quality of life of the person. So that's a very broad term. So just some basic examples are like housing, food, rent, health, assistive technology, or just anything in general like that. I know sometimes we get a very common question is, what about vacation? Am I allowed to spend my stable money on a vacation? Well, that's sort of up for interpretation to the person, but in my opinion, That would improve my quality of life. So I believe it is a qualified disability expense. But we just ask that everyone keep their records and receipts just in case the IRS ever does audit. They haven't in the past, but it's always a possibility. So just always keeping your receipts on hand is the best thing to do.

With people with disabilities, keep those receipts is pretty much universal advice, correct?

Yes, and you can do that very easily through online because the account is managed online and you can just upload your receipts there.

Your, your STABLE account is managed online?

Yes.

Let me ask, what are the benefits of the account? What is— how does someone benefit from a STABLE account?

Yeah, so usually individuals, if they draw SSI or Medicaid, they're very limited on what they can save. There's usually this $2,000-ish limit that they usually see, but with a stable account, you can actually save up to $20,000 per year. And if the individual is able to work, it's even more than that. So it really just gives them a great savings tool and for everyday expenses as well.

Okay, so how might someone use it?

It's a savings account.

So how might someone use that for Like everyday expenses? Tell me how that would work.

Yeah. So a lot of people actually use our stable Visa card. So it's a preloadable card and you can just load your money right onto it and then you can spend it anywhere that a Visa card is accessible. So if you need to buy groceries, you can just take your stable card with you to go purchase those. So it makes it a lot easier because I know I use my debit and credit cards everywhere. So I love that. That's a great option.

What about saving for things like an accessible van or wheelchair maintenance, things like that?

Yeah. So we offer 5 different investment options and those range from conservative to aggressive. So if you're wanting to save long-term, you can put your money into some of those investment options. A lot of people choose to actually put their money in multiple options, but you don't have to do that. You can just pick one or you can pick multiple, but that's the best way to help your money grow the fastest.

Tell me more about the, the benefits of an ABLE account versus a normal checking account or a savings account.

Yes. So with an ABLE account, your money actually grows tax-free. So when you take out your money, it's tax-free. So you don't see that a lot of times with some investment accounts and things like that. And then also, this is just a really neat incentive we're offering. So to open an account, you go to stablekentucky.com and you have to put $25 in for your account to be activated. But we offer a permanent incentive where we'll actually match that $25. So then you start out with $50 and you're able to grow from there. Wow.

And so then what would happen? Let's say I go to, let's see, stablekentucky.com.

Yes.

I go there, I open my account, I've got $50, then, then what do I do?

Yeah, so you have multiple options. You can leave that money in there and watch it grow, or you can take some of that money out if you need to spend it. To set up an account, it is very easy to do. If you already have your bank account information ready and you've already looked up the investment options, you can most likely get your account started in less than 10 minutes.

Wow, that's awesome.

That's amazing. Yeah. And if the person needs help, our customer service team will actually walk through with them every step of the way to help them open their account.

Okay, great. That's great. So I know a lot of people are— we have to be so cautious about not going over certain limits, right, with our income, because then we end up actually losing money because we lose benefits. Of course. So how can a stable account help us to keep up with that and to not lose those benefits?

Yeah, so as I mentioned, you're allowed to save up to $20,000 per year without losing your benefits, even more if you're able to work. And then your Medicaid really isn't affected with a stable account. Your SSI, you're able to save up to over $100,000. But if you go over that, your SSI will be paused. It won't be discontinued, but it will be paused, and you'll be alerted to try to get your account balance back down. But the stable accounts also send alerts to the individuals too.

To let you know if you're getting close to that limit or something?

Yes. And an important thing to note, as ABLE accounts are for people of all ages, as long as their disability began before 46. But with the younger population, sometimes your parents may not want you to, let's say, spend money at maybe a tobacco store or something. They can actually block that on the stable Visa card. So there's a lot of control options as well.

Really? Okay. Okay. Well, that sounds interesting. And the Visa card, the thing is accepted basically everywhere. Is that—

Yeah, anywhere that Visa is accepted, it's accepted. National ABLE Day was created just to spread awareness over ABLE accounts. And so today is National ABLE Day. The State Treasurer's Office, we released a press release 2 days ago, and then today I'm on this podcast, and then tomorrow our general counsel will actually be on a radio show in Northern Kentucky discussing ABLE. Just in celebration of National ABLE Day.

Awesome.

And is August 14th— does that— is that the day that the act was passed?

I'd have to look back because in Kentucky it was in December.

Okay.

So, okay. So have you seen a lot of movement in the last few years of people getting ABLE accounts?

Are they increasing in number?

Yeah, we're definitely increasing by a lot. As of right now, we have over $27 million in total assets in Kentucky. We have almost 3,000 accounts.

Wow, that is more than I thought you would say.

Yeah, it's, it's really growing. But we, we are really trying to focus our outreach on all counties. But also there are a few specific counties that have zero accounts. Like just to name a couple, Lyon County, Monroe County, Russell County, and those counties, they actually have zero accounts. So we've really been trying to work hard to make sure that all 120 counties in Kentucky have a stable account.

Okay.

So, I mean, hey, those are some areas where I am close to Bowling Green. So if you're in those, one of those counties, get out there and set up your, your account. What was the web address again?

StableKentucky.com.

StableKentucky.com and set up that account because it seems like— is there any downside to a stable account?

Because I'm not—

I don't think so. I think it's a great opportunity. You know, a lot of times we get the question, well, what's the difference in a trust and a stable account? Well, the best way to phrase it is they're great complementary tools. So a lot of people actually have both. Stable is more easier for everyday expenses, and a trust is for larger, larger expenses later on down the road.

And you said even they could be used for housing, right? So like people would save money and use for a down payment, or can they actually be used for like your house payment?

Yeah, they can be used for both.

Okay.

Those definitely improve your quality of life.

And did you say they are tax-free, right?

Yes, that is correct. So we actually have a great ambassador program that we lead through the State Treasurer's Office. And these are individuals that they just go out and spread the good word about STABLE just because they're amazing people. So they either work in a disability-related field, Maybe they have a disability themselves, or maybe their kid has a disability. And so one of our newest ambassadors, we actually got to help her set up her account, and she is actually legally blind and has been her whole life. And she shared with us how excited she was because she had never been able to save before for her dream of traveling the world. She never thought that was possible until she actually opened her STABLE account. And so now she's actually saving to go travel and do things she never thought was possible before. So stable accounts can really change lives in a lot of ways that people just don't even realize.

That's awesome. And she's also braver than me. Traveling the world sounds very scary to me.

I know. I've never even been out of the country.

Me either. I don't like to leave my house.

Me either.

All right. Sounds great. We will link to that website and everyone can get signed up and get those financial goals up and running. So, Jordan Pennington, thank you so much for being on Demand and Disrupt with me today.

Well, thank you so much for having me. And thank you again for this great network.

Oh, thanks so much.

Demand and Disrupt is a production of the Advocato Press with generous support from the Center for Accessible Living based in Louisville, Kentucky. Our executive producers are me, Kimberly Parsley, and Dave Mathis. Our sound engineer is Michael Parsley. Thanks to Chris Ankin for the use of his song Change. Don't forget to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode, and please consider leaving a review. You can find links to our email and social media in the show notes. Please reach out and let's keep the conversation going. Thanks, everyone.