Episode 39: Changing the Narrative

2 months ago

Kimberly talks to Luda Gogolushko, founder of Includas Publishing, about the importance of disability representation in media. They discuss the evolution of how disabled people are portrayed in media, as well as the possibilities and pitfalls of AI for the representation of people with disabilities in media.

Visit Includas Publishing’s offerings at Includas.com

Thanks to Chris Ankin for use of his song, “Change.”

The book "A Celebration of Family: Stories of Parents with Disabilities." is available from Amazon here.

Visit Moving Forward, the Advocado Press blog.

Send comments and questions to [email protected]

Demand and Disrupt is sponsored by the Advocado Press and the Center For Accessible Living.

You can find the transcript in the show notes below when they become available.

Transcript

Welcome to demand and disrupt the disability podcast.

Here we will learn to advocate for ourselves and each other.

This podcast is supported with funds from the Advocato press based in Louisville, Kentucky.

Hello everyone.

And thank you for joining us on demand and disrupt.

I am your host, Kimberly Parsley and I'm Lisa McKinley.

And today my interview guest is Luda Gogoluszko and she is the founder of Include Us Publishing, which is a publisher whose goal is to increase media representation of people with disabilities.

And she is from the University of Oregon.

So I'm very excited about that.

I'm excited because it's October, which is the beginning of my favorite season, which is pretty much the whole last quarter of the year, because I love Halloween and then I love Thanksgiving and I even love the holidays.

So it's amazing.

It's like the best month of the entire year.

It is it.

I absolutely agree.

It's like, I think it's because finally we're getting some fall weather in Kentucky.

At least we can be convinced that there might be some fall weather coming.

Yeah, I love it.

Are you a pumpkin spice person?

Are you anti that?

I mean, it's it's it's OK, maybe a little and some coffee, but all the pumpkin spice cereal and pumpkin spice, baked beans, all like pumpkin spice, everything.

It's like some of it's a little weird.

I'll give you that.

But I've already gotten my pumpkin spice cream cheese to go on my bagel.

So that sounds like it would work.

I got a got my new decor.

I got a well, I think crystal skull.

I'm sure it's just like glass, but it's a clear skull and it apparently has glitter in it.

So if you turn it on, the glitter sparkles and then there's a candle sticking out of the top.

If you want to go for a little spookier sort of thing, Michael thinks it's the absolute tackiest thing that he's ever seen.

But we love it.

We love it.

It can't be as tacky as what we saw at Lowe's the other day.

It was a 10 foot animatronic skeleton for your yard that was $500.

It was that Lowe's or Home Depot because the 12 foot Home Depot skeleton is like a thing.

It's like iconic now.

Maybe it was Home Depot.

No, it's like a thing.

I mean like people, and then they're so expensive that I've seen people like keep them out all year and put like, you know, like a Santa Claus hat on them in December and then like bunny ears, you know, but yeah, but I'm not paying for that.

I'm judging you right now.

I'm sure you are.

It's fine.

Hey, my tacky knows no bounds, none at all.

We have a little like two foot one to keep in the house.

His name is Trevor because the kids, you know, to thrill, his name is Trevor, you know, that kind of thing.

So the new, the new, the new school is his name is Bob because Bob is the name of a skull that is in the Dresden files, which is a series about a wizard in Chicago.

And there's a talking school whose name is Bob.

So the new school is named Bob.

So what, what do you have?

Do you, do you, I bet you do classy holiday decorations, don't you?

I have a brown hand spun pottery bowl with little pumpkins and, and pine cones in it, but you know, fall wreath, but that's about the extent.

See, you're like pottery barn and I'm like, I don't know, spirit Halloween just threw up in my house or something.

So I wish I was more into decorations, but I can set you up with some tacky Halloween.

I really can.

We did have this witch that would like it screamed and cackled and would like it was attached to the bucket with the candy in it, you know, and it would grab the candy out and it was so spooky.

I threw it away.

I thought it was demonic.

Alex brought it home.

I'm like, this thing is scaring me.

So we have outside, we have like the led lights around the back porch and not, not, not like holiday or anything.

Just, uh, there's just the led strip of lights around the, our screened in porch.

And Michael was out there doing something with the dog.

And because it's, you know, Halloween is coming, I, I turned them because they're Alexa enabled.

I had to whisper her name or else, you know, uh, I'll summon her, but so I changed them.

I had Alexa change them to crimson, change the color of the lights to crimson while Michael was outside with the dog.

He was like, he just, I heard him holler that's creepy.

Stop it.

Oh, Halloween is fun.

I miss how I miss taking the kids trick or treating.

It was my, I think one of my most favorite things to do with the kids.

So, uh, I like the candy, but I like, I like, I like the adult parts of Halloween taking the kids trick or treating with that was probably my least favorite thing because really I loved it.

Did you?

Oh, that's awesome.

Did they get into like, uh, dressing up his stuff?

Did they do that?

Yeah, they dress up, but I mean, they weren't like super, you know, it was like, you know, I'm a procrastinator, so this is well established.

We would always get the, you know, whatever costume was left the day before Halloween, but just walking around and, you know, listening to their excitement about getting the candy and, and everything.

That was always fun for me.

Did you ever do like homemade costumes?

Yes.

One year.

And this was my favorite Halloween of all David.

It was his last Halloween dressing up.

Um, he dressed up as a high C fruit box.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

My brother-in-law found a box that had the exact same dimensions as a high C fruit box, except bigger.

Oh, okay.

Uh huh.

Got the whole, and my niece, she, she painted it orange and she put the nutrition label.

She copied it verbatim off the box.

Patrick put a little hole with a PVC pipe for the straw.

Oh, cool.

I mean, people were throwing him fistfuls of candy because this costume was so cool.

That's awesome.

That is awesome.

So we have white cane day, which comes up October 15th and the white cane is symbolic for people who are blind to use.

It's to identify us as someone who's blind, as in we didn't walk out in front of you in traffic on purpose, you know, and so please don't run over us.

Uh, I think most Kings have a, most of them all have a, like a red reflective strip at the bottom.

Don't they?

Yes.

So, and I was thinking about this yesterday.

You and I were at a meeting and someone was there and she asked that there's something you could put on the end of a white cane.

It's called a marshmallow tip.

And you use that if you're, you know, if most of your travel is inside it.

So you don't like bang, bang, bang against every surface that you touch in the wall.

It's just kind of a softer tip.

And she said, does anyone know how to get gum off a marshmallow tip?

And I told her, just throw it away and buy it.

So not that expensive.

And you don't want to be playing around with somebody else's gum, somebody else's gum.

Yep.

Exactly.

But I mean, you know, that is a problem.

I was, I could, I went through cane tips when I was a cane traveler.

I went through cane tips like crazy.

I mean, cause you're just filing them down every second you're using them outside, like on campus.

And I walked really fast and I still walked fast.

So I was constantly breaking my cane because I would, you know, it's there to protect you in case you run into something, but when you're running into something at high speeds, they kind of sometimes snap.

So I've snapped a lot of white canes.

The snapper, they punch you in the gut.

Oh yes.

You know, yes.

When you're going too fast and the cane stops, but you don't and it's a sucker punch for sure.

Yep.

Exactly.

So, so, you know, I, I was a very confident traveler when I was in college, not so much anymore.

Now that I have the balance problems.

I feel the same.

Because, you know, you get out of the habit of it.

I mean, mine's not balance issues.

It's more so that I'm, I'm not in an environment where I'm traveling independently a lot anymore.

So I get out of the habit of using the cane.

I've used it, I use it a lot within the, you know, massage school, but even there I've, I'll lean it up against the wall and just walk around the place without the cane.

Cause it's not a very big place, but yeah, I don't feel as confident anymore.

And I wish I was because wasn't it kind of cool to just whip that thing out and, you know, whip the cane out and just like take off.

Like you're the boss.

I don't think I ever felt like a boss.

I never felt like a boss.

No, no, no.

I was always kind of an apprehensive traveler.

I loved having a guide dog.

I really did.

But the thing with having a guide dog is you've really got, I mean, to work them properly, you've got, you've got to have places to go.

And most of my travel, you know, living in here in Bowling Green, I usually have to get a ride because we don't have public transportation.

So I get a ride.

So, you know, it's not really worth it anymore to take the dog from a car to a building, you know?

I mean, that's, that's not really going that far, but on campus, I loved having a dog.

I wish I had the dog.

I never, I never went the dog route, but who knows?

But in college, when I had the cane, I almost had like this sense of blind entitlement, like this cane will open doors for me.

And literally it did.

If you, if you walked around and somebody saw you had a cane, you were always getting the doors held open for you until, you know, every once in a while somebody didn't hold the door and you're like, how rude, don't you see that?

And, and, um, once like my entitlement, it got so bad.

So I'm walking down campus with my cane and I'm, I'm about at my dorm and I get on the sidewalk to the dorm and I'm, I'm hauling like a, you know, walking fast and crash.

I crashed into something, my cane breaks in half and it's a car.

It's a car parked right in the sidewalk of our dormitory.

You know, you're not supposed to have a car on the sidewalk.

So I was like so mad.

I went inside and I called the campus police and I'm like, there is a car parked in the, in the sidewalk.

So they called me back about 30 minutes later and I'm like, ma'am, did you call about a car in the sidewalk?

And I'm like, yes.

And they're like, that was our police car.

We had an emergency.

So I called the police on the police.

They were in your way.

So white cane day, October 50.

So very exciting blind blindness awareness month.

And then also disability employment awareness.

So I was wondering, Lisa, what do you, if there was anything that you wished employers or prospective employers were aware of, what would it be?

I think it would be that for me personally, I would say I could, I can do the job just as well as anyone else.

It just takes some modifications and, and I would want them to know they don't have to come up with the modifications.

I will let them know what those modifications need to be.

And it's nothing that's going to break the budget.

It's nothing that's going to be time consuming or it's just a little, just, just a little thing.

And, and I can do the job just as well as anyone else.

You know, that, that's so interesting because mine is basically the exact same thing.

Mine is all I'm asking is just to have the tools I need to do the job.

It's just that my tools may be different.

You know, I mean, you wouldn't dream of giving another employee a laptop computer that doesn't have the programs on it that they, that the person needs to use to be successful.

Right.

So same thing with me.

I, I need the programs on there, like, you know, uh, text to speech to be successful.

So that it's, it's just the awareness part of it is just be aware.

I just need different tools.

That's all it is.

And do you think a lot of the apprehension with hiring someone with a disability, it's they think you can't do the job.

So saying no to the accommodations is a way of not hiring you at all.

Or what do you think?

Think that people think because they couldn't do the job without being able to see that there's no way we can do the job without being able to see exactly.

Nevermind the fact that we do all the things without being able to see, you know, I just think because people think, oh, I, there's no way they can do that.

And it's like, you know, accounting or some such like really.

Um, another thing employers should know is, you know, we've been living with these disabilities our whole life.

The world is not set up for us yet.

We have managed, we have come up with creative solutions and we are amazing problem solvers.

And I would speak for most people on that one, most disabled people, I would say are pretty darn good problem solvers.

And that's what you want on your workforce.

Yep.

People who are resourceful know how to get the job done.

Yeah, I absolutely agree.

But I don't think, I don't think any, I don't think any employer thinks of themselves as being ableist or thinking, Oh, I would never hire a disabled person, except they literally would never hire a disabled person.

You know, so just, I mean, you know, it's one thing to you were, you were talking about people, you know, holding the door open for you when they see you have a cane, you know, that's nice.

That's just manners.

That's just being polite.

That does not an ally make.

Right.

You know, I mean, just, just because you're nice to disabled people doesn't, doesn't mean that that doesn't make it okay that you aren't hiring somebody here.

You know, it doesn't mean you're a champion for us.

Right.

And there you go.

Yeah, exactly.

So, and I think that's important.

This is an important conversation that we, we can have, you know, this month about awareness.

And so listeners, if you'll have anything, you know, any, anything to add any about this topic, because it's an important topic.

I would even love to get employers talking about that, you know, And I'd love to hear your stories of maybe discrimination you've faced in the workplace or while trying to get a job.

I remember trying to get a job, a summer job at just like a, an amusement park.

And they told me that I shouldn't work there and couldn't work around the sodas because I wouldn't be able to see a bee that might sting me.

It's just ridiculous.

So yeah, so, you know, send us an email, let us know what you've faced in that front.

Absolutely.

We would love to hear that.

The more ridiculous, the better.

We would love to hear it.

So demand and disrupt at gmail.com.

Can't wait to hear it.

So, and now onto our interview with Luda Gogoluszko.

I'm joined today by Luda Gogoluszko.

She is the founder of Include Us Publishing.

Hello, Luda.

How are you?

Hi, I'm good.

Thank you for having me.

You are most welcome.

And I want to let our listeners know that Include Us is spelled I-N-C-L-U-D-A-S. Is that correct?

Yes, it is.

Excellent.

So tell me about Include Us Publishing.

Yeah.

So Include Us Publishing is really focused on bringing disability representation into books and also supporting authors, interns, staff, editors, and illustrators who may or may not have a disability.

But it's really rooted in just like showcasing disability in media due to the lack of that representation not being seen.

Over the years, right now, I think it's being pushed forward a little bit better.

But that is really where Include Us was born is to see more authentic, positive representation, especially in children's media, because there's just such a limited amount of that.

And if there are representations of disability in media, it always has a tendency to be very harmful or stereotypical and negatively impact disabled people.

So that's sorted in a nutshell of what Include Us is about and why it exists.

Awesome.

And so what happened to make you say?

I think that something needs to be done about this.

Was there any spearhead kind of moment for you?

Kind of.

I guess 10 years ago, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with my career.

I was finishing college.

And it seemed that a lot of people were telling me what I should do.

But I didn't really ask myself what I wanted to do.

So I just decided that something with stories and something with books kind of brought me peace and joy and the sense of, I guess, safety in regards to world building a world that I wanted to create.

Because disability and reality and society, it's a really hard world to live in.

So I guess it started with one book and then it eventually evolved into shaping to be more of a small press, which led to really bringing on different members to be part of the team and authors and illustrators.

So it wasn't like one day I was like, I'm going to start a press.

It sort of evolved over the years and kind of grew in that respect over time.

And why a publishing company instead of like lots of people start non-profits or they go into a particular advocacy work?

What about the publishing field drew you to that?

Just the creation of books.

As a kid, I would always cut up magazines and pictures and reorganize them to have a layout or a feel or theme that I wanted to create.

So I would cut out all, in my time, the Spice Girls.

I would cut out all of them that I would see in magazines and create my own Spice Girls magazine.

And I used to love, gosh, what was it called?

I think it's called Disney Adventures Magazine.

And it was like really tiny or I guess like a pocket-sized magazine for kids that talked about Disney stars and movies and whatnot.

And they always had this page where it showed how the magazine was organized and all the different floors that it would go through.

And I just love the idea of putting together different things into each other.

And that creative side of me was just so confident that I would enjoy doing that with books as well, like piecing things together, moving this and that, and looking at the layout.

And so I just wanted to put together books and create books.

And it was during that time where it was starting to become a little bit more common to create small presses.

And I guess technology was also up for grabs where it allowed me to do that, where you don't have to be working with a big publisher to do that.

You can really create your own imprint and the books and the titles that you want to see in the world.

So I guess there's a lot of things that align with my passion, my childhood creativity and the technology and the age of books and digital content was also allowing me to do that as well.

It's been a very freeing.

The gates are wide open over the last 10 years in terms of publishing, haven't they?

Yeah, definitely.

Especially in the last five years, for sure.

Yeah.

It's been wonderful to see.

It really has.

So it's amazing what you've done.

So tell me about some of the titles that Include Us has published.

Yeah.

So we have a few picture books and I personally have two.

One is called Luda and Cherisie making friends.

So when I was a kid, I gave my wheelchair a name and it was Cherisie.

That's awesome.

Thank you.

It was just something that I kind of had to myself and I didn't really know a lot of other people in wheelchairs except those that I saw at the Muscular Dystrophy Association summer camp, the MBA summer camps.

And so I really wanted to foster this idea that friendships are friendships, whether you're in a wheelchair or not.

Even though it could be scary because growing up, even now I feel like with kids, they just look at those who might look different, quote unquote, maybe as unsure how to approach a person in a wheelchair.

And so I really wanted this book to illustrate that even if you feel like no one likes you or no one really knows how to talk to you, everyone's still a person and a human and you can be friends with anyone regardless of whether they are in a wheelchair or not.

And that was a couple of years ago.

I think a lot of the times it's really exciting to create a book and base yourself in that kid-like fictional character.

But recently last year, I also worked with Melquia Smith.

She was the illustrator for The Biggest Gift of All. And we really explored the idea of what is a gift that you can give that is so big to like your best friend that you bring to your birthday party when everyone else has the opportunity to bring even bigger gifts.

So that was a really interesting and fun aspect of friendship as well to play around with and the colors.

And that was really, actually really interesting and fun project to explore.

And I really wanted to make sure that we always see disability on the cover, especially disability representation that is not regularly seen.

So with this recent book, Melquia Smith, she designed a black girl, disabled girl in a wheelchair.

And we're like, we're putting her on the cover as I always try to do.

Well, I do always with all the books is to see that disability on the cover, because even if there is representation in media, it has a tendency to like hide or like not be existent or just not be disabled and proud.

And so we do that with also one of our, or actually both of our YA books where Good Morning Dinah, we show high school scene and it's the main character with her service dog.

And then The Pearls of Yesterday, we also include a wheelchair and the character along with her, I guess, love interests, but she has two.

And so that is really important for all the books that I make sure go out into the world is that people know and people see positive images of disability versus what is commonly stereotypically out there when it comes to media representation that is being created by non-disabled people.

If that makes any sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Yes, absolutely.

So the books that you mentioned, which do sound amazing, do people reach out to, I guess, your website to get those?

Are they available from Amazon and Barnes and Noble and all those retailers?

Yeah, definitely.

They are available on Amazon, bookshop, Barnes and Noble, any major outlitter or I guess retailer, book retailer, independent.

What is the indie?

I think it's called the indie bookstore, but they're definitely available.

And if they are not, feel free to let us know or reach out.

Yeah.

And if they're not available, you know, at your local bookshop, then go up and ask for them.

Yeah, you can ask for it.

Definitely.

Also, I would suggest libraries too.

Many times a library will take on an ebook or a physical book.

We're also happy to donate books to libraries too.

So if that is something that anyone is interested in, I am more excited to more than excited to offer that as well.

Awesome.

So are the books that you mentioned were kids books and young adult?

Are those the titles that you specifically do?

Yeah.

So we basically do more on the kids side and YA, and then we do a little bit of middle grade as well.

And I would say more, more maybe 70% is kids related.

We also have a coloring book that showcases different activities, disabilities, and just a collection of kid related material that also incorporates a variety of disabled characters in there.

That is so important.

It is so important to do those kinds of things.

And so one I have to ask about, cause this is just the best idea is the brides in wheelchairs wedding planner on your website.

Yeah.

Tell me about that.

Yeah.

So the brides and wheelchairs project is basically the same idea of showcasing disabled brides and love stories that are just not seen.

What if I've never gone or I, my background is in event planning as well.

I majored in that when I went to Cal State Northridge.

And so in studying that, I just never saw weddings and bridal and disability.

And it's a niche that I'm really curious to explore because I love taking a space that is not inclusive and being let's make it inclusive.

And so that's also a side project that has been in development for some time, but it's the idea of just seeing more representation of disability, especially in the wedding space because it's so important.

It's so important just representation in general, but overall the book is a wedding planner that is designed to be inclusive and disability friendly.

So for example, normal wedding planners, they will ask certain questions, but they won't ask, oh, is there a ramp?

Is there a ramp that you can rent out?

What are the tips for trying on wedding dresses when you're in the wheelchair?

So things that are never considered and wedding planners, because we don't see that representation.

And so that is really what that project is about is to bring that notion and awareness and say, put a stamp on the importance of being inclusive.

And that includes disability, which is one of the most excluded non-dominant groups that we see a lot, a lot everywhere.

True.

And such good ideas in there.

Like you talked about, in addition, just just making sure that the, the, the venue is accessible, but you also talk about like having extra pins to pin up the dress.

Yeah.

And I love this, the go-kart decorated with the just married son and stuff that such great ideas that I'm sure other people have have thought of smart things.

I am not one of those people.

I, I did not know what I was doing with my own wedding.

So, but this would have been great.

And I mean, because I'm blind, you know, all those magazines like bride and modern bride and all those, they were, there was just not anything in them.

There was nothing there for me, you know, they're all glossy pictures and stuff.

So, I mean, I had to rely on other people's eyes so much.

So yeah, there is definitely a need in the disability space for that kind of thing.

And I'm so glad that you filled it.

Wonderful.

People should look that up.

Yeah.

I, you know, it's a very small little itty bitty project, but I do think you have to plant the seed of what needs to happen.

And then hopefully eventually it will grow in some capacity.

But if you don't start and you don't plant and you don't try, then it's not really, it doesn't really have the opportunity or chance to become something bigger, whether that rejects the project forward or someone else gets inspired or gets picked up somewhere else.

Those things just, they need to be out there.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's, it's a little project, but you know, somewhere, somebody, maybe someone listening to this is trying to maybe, maybe it's a woman who's trying to figure out how big a wedding can she actually do.

And she's always wanted the big wedding, but didn't think she could have it.

And now she realizes she can.

So that's a big thing, you know, a little project, but a big thing for someone, you know, that is true.

Yeah.

So wonderful.

So in terms of media, in terms of representation, how has the media landscape changed since you started include us the overall media landscape?

I mean, film and TV and books and everything.

What would you say?

Yeah.

Well, I can talk about, this is my niche.

This is my expertise.

This is what I do research in.

So I had absolutely to absolutely talk about this for a long period of time, but I guess in summary, there is this push to create more positive, authentic representation now than there was, I would say 10, 15, a hundred years ago, because we're really seeing disabled communities and organizations push for that change.

And that is something that is always been happening.

It's disabled people coming together and advocating for change, like pushing for it so hard because everything is against us.

And when I say us as a wheelchair user, I see it, I experience it.

And so I can see a little bit of change, but also the patterns of stereotypes and stories media, that will be really hard to change unless there are disabled people in power.

And that is what makes it so hard is what we're really pushing is to have control of our own representation.

So a lot of times disability representation in media is created by non-disabled people.

And with that, they take certain images or a lens that really is very one-dimensional or like one characteristic or the stereotypical idea of what they think disabled people or disability representation should look like to appease the non-disabled audiences.

And so in that fight of disabled people fighting for their own representation, I just want to put the emphasis of like having someone else tell you how you should be represented.

That in itself is like such a problem that I have.

And I really hope, and I really do think that these little changes and these little organizations and groups and books and films that are starting to really pick up attention will turn the wheel slightly in having disabled people behind the camera in front of the camera and having accessibility, having access to that.

It is not just, I've heard this so many times, well, we just don't see disabled people in society, so they must not exist and they must not want to be out in the world.

And that is so, so not true because disabled people are forced into isolation.

They're forced into segregation, which plays a lot into media representation.

And that is accepted.

Like that kind of manipulation is so accepted into society that no one really empowered questions that because they benefit from this systemic oppression that disabled people face.

So I guess to answer your question, that will still exist.

But yeah, with technology and the way that the online community of disability has bonded and pushed change forward, I think will only grow.

I do have caution looking at AI.

That will determine the future of media representation, disability representation.

Because in a recent study that I did, a lot of the stereotypes came up when I asked like, Oh, can you create a story about disability for a child?

And the AI would create certain stories that would include the disabled person didn't have any friends or they were isolated, or the fact that they had to be an inspiration for the rest of the world.

So I think we're in a time where media and representation is like people and advocacy are just, we're changing and we're kind of evolving.

And so that is probably the biggest change that I've seen in the last just 10 years, or even honestly, in the last two or three years.

So I'm really curious how VR and these technologies will change the future of how we look at media, how we engage in media, how we understand media and how we understand representation through media with all of these changes of like AI writing books, AI creating music and film.

And that has been around for a long time.

But I think right now is on the crisp of what like, what is this going to look like?

Because essentially, you can manipulate manipulate so much data, and so much information to create the representation that is desired by basically at your fingertips and at your disposal and what you want to see or like what audiences want to wants to see, especially on social media, I do feel there's a there's a rise in that representation and fighting ableism, but also trying to be authentic and just that space on social media, I do think is also pushing certain narratives or media representations into people's existence to start talking about it.

So I feel like there's a lot of different layers to answering how has the landscape and media changed.

I do think that news and newsframing and journalism still still is a little bit outdated in how it frames stories about disabilities, and who writes those stories and what stories get picked up what stories do not.

But in regards to books and literature, I do think that will change that will sway because there's such an easier access to, you know, you can self publish a book as well, and it can really skyrocket.

So social media and books, I think will have a huge impact, and also AI on the future of representation.

And then who gets to control that is really up for grabs at this point.

Yeah, because I mean, AI, if you're talking about the large language model, it's, it's just, it's basing what it's doing on what's existing out there now.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And if what's existing is stereotype, and inspiration born, then guess what the AI spits back out.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

But you know, places like Includus and your, your, your blog, your website, those kinds of things, we're putting the good stuff out there, too.

Yes, absolutely.

So, so tell me, Luda, where can people go to find more about you and about Includus Publishing?

Any social media, just kind of the at Includus, I-N-C-L-U-D-A-S. And we are, we're like faintly on TikTok and faintly on Twitter, but our presence is more on Instagram.

Instagram.

Okay.

Includus on Instagram.

Excellent.

And this was a wonderful conversation.

Thank you, Luda, so much for joining us today.

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