Kimberly talks with three of the hosts of the Canadian disability advocacy and assistive technology podcast, AT Banter. They talk about all things technology and the differences between disability justice in Canada and the United States. Then they grapple with the question, can AI deliver on its promises?

Visit the podcast atbanter.com

Visit Canadian Assistive Technology

Begin learning about Terry Fox

Begin learning about Rick Hansen

Thanks to Chris Ankin for use of his song, “Change.”

The book "A Celebration of Family: Stories of Parents with Disabilities." is available from Amazon here.

Be sure to follow the Advocado Press Facebook page

Visit Appalachian Assistive Technology Loan Fund for assistance.

Visit Moving Forward, the Advocado Press blog.

Send comments and questions to [email protected]

Demand and Disrupt is sponsored by the Advocado Press and the Center For Accessible Living.

You can find the transcript in the show notes below when they become available.

Transcript

Robotic Voice You’re listening to Demand and Disrupt, the podcast for information about accessibility, advocacy, and all things disability. Kimberly Parsley Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast. I am Kimberly Parsley. Sam Moore And I’m Sam Moore. How in the world are you, Kimberly? Kimberly Parsley I am doing very well, Sam. How about yourself? Sam Moore Can’t complain a bit, other than the slight congestion I have. Probably due primarily to these drastic temperature changes. It was over 60° here yesterday, and today we’re barely over 40°. Kimberly Parsley And I believe it’s going to keep doing this rollercoaster the rest of the week so— Sam Moore Yeah, that’s usually February in a nutshell for us. Kimberly Parsley It is. It’s weather in Kentucky. It is. It’s February and got Valentine’s Day coming up, President’s Day and Valentine’s Day. They’re the only things of note in February. Sam Moore Three days apart at that. Kimberly Parsley Oh, you’re right. They are close. Yeah, they are close. So do you have big plans for either one? Sam Moore But yeah, they’ll… Kimberly Parsley Rowdy, rowdy, President’s Day plan. Sam Moore I don’t guess it’ll be too rowdy. I might just, you know, look back on the contributions of presidents from years past. I’m honestly off trivia that night. If I had trivia duty that night at Rock House on the River here in Henderson, I would probably do a category on former presidents. Kimberly Parsley On presidents. There you go. Sam Moore But I’m off that particular night, so I don’t guess I will. And, of course, I’m a single man for right now, so Valentine’s Day is going to be pretty quiet, too. But I can appreciate Valentine’s Day and the opportunity to give those with someone they love the opportunity to, you know, celebrate in grand fashion. Have you and Michael made any plans for Valentine’s Day? Kimberly Parsley Oh, no, we’ve been married long enough. The restaurants are too packed on Valentine’s Day, so we don’t. We don’t go out to eat. And especially, it’s on a Friday night this year. So— Sam Moore The restaurants will be crowded anyway. They’re going to be. Kimberly Parsley They’re gonna be, yeah, they’re gonna be packed so we don’t do anything, and if I want something, I just tell him, “go buy Mary Jane’s Chocolates and these are the kinds that you were to get me.” [laughter] Sam Moore Y’all, Mary Jane’s is, I’ll tell you, I’ve had that guy on Blabbing In The Bluegrass, my other podcast before, and he was great. He made me want some chocolate. Kimberly Parsley They have they have good candy. They really do. So I just tell him what I want and he brings it home. You know, my sometimes the, let’s see, I’ve heard of, they call it Palantines instead of a V.F.P. for friends. Sam Moore Palentines, I like that. Kimberly Parsley Palentines, yeah, isn’t that cute so— Sam Moore That’s kind of like Friendsgiving on Thanksgiving. Kimberly Parsley Exactly. Exactly. Instead of being with family, you’d be with friends. And this is instead of, you know, someone you’re dating or married to or whatever, it’s just your friends, Palentines. And I thought that was adorable. Sam Moore Yeah, that’s, so, you know, in that case, even, you know, you single ladies or single men out there, you can, you know, as long as you’ve got friends, you can, you know, you can have a Palentine’s. Kimberly Parsley You could have a Palentines. Now, see, if it’s your friends, they’re girls, they call it Galentines. Sam Moore Oh, gosh. Sam Moore They’re really going crazy. Kimberly Parsley I know, right? I’m giving you all the vocabulary today, Sam. Sam Moore So the bottom line, people, is whether you’re single or not, you got a reason to celebrate on Friday the 14th. Kimberly Parsley Exactly. There are just no rules. There are no rules anymore, which is great. I love it. Sam Moore No rules at all. And speaking of love, folks, if you haven’t already done so, go back and take a listen to the recent Blabbing in the Bluegrass show where Kimberly Parsley was actually my guest, and we talked about her former career as a romance writer. Kimberly Parsley We did. We did. You asked me lots of questions. It was a fun conversation. It was great. It really was. Sam Moore Yeah, it makes you think back to books and other things that you hadn’t thought about in a while. Kimberly Parsley Not in a while. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was a great conversation. It was really fun. So… Sam Moore Yeah, she wrote with a friend of the alias of Molly Jameson, folks. Kimberly Parsley Yeah, that’s what I did. Sam Moore You can find out more about that on the episode from a few weeks back. And so you can listen to that. Kimberly Parsley Yeah, yeah. Kimberly Parsley Yeah, we will, y’all get on our Facebook page on the Advocado, A-D-V-O-C-A-D-O, Advocado Press Facebook page, and I will, we’ll link to it. We’ll link to that Blabbing in the Bluegrass episode from there. Sam Moore Perfect. Yeah, you can google Molly Jameson books, you can get a feel for her writing there, too. Kimberly Parsley Sure. Sounds good. Sam’s doing a little, a little advertising there for me. Sam Moore Well, I do what little I can. Kimberly Parsley So speaking of doing things, this was a different thing. No, it’s actually pretty on brand for me. I did the stupidest thing, Sam. Sam Moore Nooo Kimberly Parsley I know, right? Shocking. Sam Moore I can’t even imagine. Kimberly Parsley I, it’s kind of like, I said a stupid thing, but I feel like I know how other people feel when they say stupid things to me. So we had, I was, I had an, I had an office meeting at like, had to be in the office instead  So I was in the office and we have a relatively new employee and he’s a great guy and he’s a wheelchair user and he’s, he’s fun and he’s so good and so passionate about the work. And his name is Kent Madison and he’s doing a wonderful job there at the Center for Accessible Living and so as we were leaving, I was just asking, you know, I ended up having to stay there a little later. So I was walking out and I was like, who all’s left here?  And Kent said, “I think it’s just me.” And I said, “It’s just you.” I said, “Oh, okay, well, Kent, you’re the last man standing”, which, and so you see...  [chuckle] Sam Moore Oh, “the last man standing.” [chuckle] Kimberly Parsley Last man standing, yes, I said that to a wheelchair user [laughter] and I was like, you know, I mean, and I was walking out, I was like, I am so stupid and I felt bad about it, and then I felt bad about feeling bad, you know, because I’m like, you know, I don’t want people when they say, you know, “What did you see?” or “Did you see that?” People say that to me, like, “Oh gosh, I can’t believe I said that!” you know. I know people don’t think anything about it at all and I know Kent didn’t. He said, and he made a joke out of It. He just said, “Nope, last man sitting.”, which, I’m sure he says all the time.— Sam Moore Oh, see, I figured he’d have a sense of humor about it. Kimberly Parsley Exactly. And, he does. And, but, I was like, I’m on the other side, you know, of, I actually said something stupid, not insensitive because I certainly didn’t mean to be offensive. And I’m  sure he wasn’t offended by it but you know, I just, I now know how all those people who say stuff to those of us who are blind about what we saw or you know, they didn’t say. Sam Moore Or didn’t say, yeah, yeah. Kimberly Parsley Yeah. Sam Moore Things like that. Kimberly Parsley Like, that all those kinds of things that are so, I now know how they might feel and they’re like… Sam Moore You know, yeah, that reminds me of a joke I heard one time a few years ago. I was in high school class with, somebody else was giving a presentation, it was pretty funny, actually. He, you know, incorporated a lot of humor in it. And anyway, he, this guy wasn’t in a wheelchair but one of my classmates was like “You’re so funny, you should do stand-up comedy.” And, we had another guy in a wheelchair in the class, and he spoke up out of nowhere and said, “I would but I can’t stand up.” oh we all just busted out laughing. [laughter] Kimberly Parsley Yeah, I mean, we use some of those phrases, so they don’t mean the actual, you know, that actual meaning of the word. Stand-up comedy isn’t necessarily just about the standing up, you know, it’s just about doing comedy in front of people, right? Sam Moore That’s like sometimes I’ll tell people, I’ll be like, I’ll see you later. And if they’re trying to be really funny, they’ll be like, no, you won’t.  [chuckle] Kimberly Parsley And then you have to say, oh, goodness, that’s the first time I’ve ever heard that joke. [laughter] Sam Moore Yeah, I’ve been there once or twice. Kimberly Parsley Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that was an interesting thing that happened to me. I know it will shock everyone that Kimberly put her foot in her mouth but, you know, first time for everything. [laughter] Sam Moore Put my foot in my mouth more than once. You know, it’s one of those, it’s a chapter for your future autobiography there, Kimberly.  [laughter] Kimberly Parsley I could write a whole book about the times I’ve put my foot in my mouth. Sam Moore That would be a bestseller. [laughter] Kimberly Parsley That would be a whole book is what that would be. Well, we are, this week, I got a chance to interview a couple of Canadian guys. They’re from the AT Banter, AT, of course, for Assistive Technology Banter podcast, and it was Rob Mineault, Ryan Fleury, and Steve Barclay, who I interviewed, and they were delightful, and they work in, they know their podcast is about advocacy and all manner of things but it started out about assistive technology and, wow, assistive technology is even things you don’t think are assistive technology really, really, are— Sam Moore Oh, that criteria here, you know? Kimberly Parsley Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean— Sam Moore And you were actually a guest on their podcast first, weren’t you? Kimberly Parsley Yes, yes, they had me on a couple of months ago. Sam Moore Then you return the favor. Kimberly Parsley Yes, I had them on so that they could tell me all about what they do. And we got to talk about the differences between United States disability justice and Canadian disability justice. And that’s fascinating. It doesn’t go how you think. It’s very interesting. Sam Moore Yeah, and they’re not as similar as you might think. Kimberly Parsley No, no, not at all. But of course, the assistive technology, I always find that interesting. And we have a link on our web page, standing link to the Appalachian Assistive Technology Loan Fund, which you talked about in your interview with— Sam Moore Ryan Creech. Kimberly Parsley Yes! With Ryan, you talked with him, so. Sam Moore Yeah, that was a portion of our chat. It was, yeah, the A-A-T-L-F is how we abbreviate it.  But, yeah, if you folks want to learn more about that, A, check out our chat, and B, you can hit that link. Kimberly Parsley Absolutely. A low or no interest way to get assistive technology. I mean, some of it’s very pricey, very, very, pricey. Not all of it, but I mean, you’re talking about modifying a van for wheelchair access. That’s pretty— Sam Moore That ain’t cheap! Kimberly Parsley No, no, that’s not cheap. Lots of computer stuff for people who are visually impaired, not cheap. Sam Moore And the amount of time you’re given to pay off the loan, it varies depending on how expensive your equipment is, how much money is being lent to you. So it varies, which is a good thing that the ATLF is flexible in that nature. Kimberly Parsley Yes, yes, it is. It is wonderful. And, you know, another thing that’s different in the United States versus Canada is our, our kind of disability heroes. Here, of course, in the United States, we  have my hero, Judy Heumann, and we have Ed Roberts, hero of the independent living movement. And of  course, in Kentucky, we have Jerry Gordon Brown, Cass Irvin, and Arthur Campbell. We, Kentucky has certainly donated our share of heroes and heroines to the disability cause. Sam Moore Maybe I’ll work my way up to hero one of these days. [laughter] Kimberly Parsley I’m sure, I’m sure you’re right on the cusp, Sam. I’m sure you are. [laughter] Sam Moore I keep telling myself that. [laughter] Kimberly Parsley And, but in Canada, they have Terry Fox. He was a young man who was diagnosed with cancer, lost a leg. So he had one leg amputated and yet he started walking.  And I believe they call it marathons. I guess he was running. Running marathons. They call it a marathon of hope. And now one is held annually. I believe he passed away in 1981. I believe is what I read. I linked to a bio in the show notes for him and just really made a difference. Lots of buildings in Canada are named after him. There’s a really prominent statue of him. Sam Moore I’ve not heard anything about him other than I’m already inspired. Kimberly Parsley Uh-huh. Right, right. Yes, exactly. So people will want to check that out. And then the other person they mentioned was Rick Hansen. And he’s still alive. He is a wheelchair user. He had a spinal cord injury. And yet, he did what I believe is called The Man In Motion Tour where he circled— Sam Moore Man In Motion… [thoughtful] Kimberly Parsley Yeah, he’s a wheelchair user. He circled the globe in a wheelchair to prove that it could be done and to raise money for, to remove obstacles to people with disabilities so they can travel more freely. Sam Moore So he, you know, he’s got quite a story to tell, too. Kimberly Parsley Absolutely. Absolutely. And I also linked to his too. Sam Moore Do you want to Rick’s little bio, too? Kimberly Parsley Yeah, honestly, I’m just linking to the Wikipedia because I figure that’s a good place to start. Sam Moore You know, that’s not a bad spot to start. Kimberly Parsley We’ve talked here before, you don’t want to probably finish up at Wikipedia but it’s definitely a good place to start. Sam Moore You know, don’t use it for your grad school papers or anything like that, but it’s a good place to, you know, you can click on that link, and if you’re just looking for more info about Rick to start out, we got you covered here on Demand and Disrupt. Kimberly Parsley Exactly. Exactly. You know, that’s one of the things we wanted to do was to keep bringing those heroes, those mentors of ours to the next generation of advocates. Sam Moore And that that reminds me of Matt Davis, who is the student disability services coordinator at Western Kentucky University. You know, yes, he’s in a wheelchair and at least he used to do a bunch of marathons every year, and I’m sure he still does. Kimberly Parsley He does. He was a wheelchair racer. We’ve had him on the show before. Sam Moore Oh, that’s one of your former guests. Kimberly Parsley Yes, he is. Kimberly Parsley Lisa McKinley interviewed him. Sam Moore You know, I’m sure he kept things lively. Kimberly Parsley Yes, yes. A wonderful interview that he did as well. So, yes, disability community, no shortage of people pushing the envelope, you know, going all out, doing everything they. Sam Moore Proving things are possible that we didn’t think were possible. Kimberly Parsley Exactly. And all for the purposes of bringing awareness, making things better for the lives of people with disabilities. Sam Moore Sure, indeed. Kimberly Parsley Yes. And the guys at AT Banter doing that as well in their way. So without further ado, here is my interview with the three of the four hosts of the AT Banter podcast. Sam Moore Enjoy! Kimberly Parsley Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast. I am here with a very special group of guests today, all Canadians. I am here with Rob Mineault, Ryan Fleury, and Steve Barclay from the AT Banter podcast. Hello guys, and welcome. Ryan Fleury Hi, thanks for having us. Steve Barclay Hello Kimberly Parsley You are most welcome. I want you all to kind of go around and tell about yourselves and what you do, so, Rob, let’s start with you. Rob Mineault Sure. My day job is the communications coordinator for a small nonprofit organization up here in Vancouver, B.C. We provide services and support to children and youth who are blind or partially sighted. And then on the side, I get together with these characters once a week and record a podcast called A.T. Banter. Kimberly Parsley Excellent. Love your podcast very much. I was a guest on it last week. Well, in an early January episode. So very fun. Ryan, what about you? Ryan Fleury Hi, I’m Ryan Fleury. I work with Steve or for Steve at Canadian Assistive Technology and I provide technical support and sales and training on our blindness products. Kimberly Parsley Excellent. And Steve, for whom Ryan works, tell us about yourself. Steve Barclay I am the owner of Canadian assistive technology. I’ve been in the assistive technology industry for a little over 34 years now. Uh, so, uh, that’ll give you an idea of just how old I am. And I basically do, uh, whatever Ryan doesn’t do.  [laughter] Kimberly Parsley Okay. Okay. Now, how many of the three of you have a disability? Ryan Fleury Invisible or visible? [laughter] Kimberly Parsley It doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter, whatever you would like to disclose is fine with me. [chuckle] Ryan Fleury Well, this is Ryan. I’m totally blind. Rob Mineault Yeah, and I’m able-bodied. This is Rob. Steve Barclay Yeah, I’m also able-bodied and possibly an undiagnosed ADHD. Kimberly Parsley Gotcha. Okay. And there’s another co-host that works with you sometimes, correct? Rob Mineault That’s Liz Malone. Kimberly Parsley And we miss her not joining us today. Rob Mineault Yes. We do, we do. [laughter] Ryan Fleury Do we now? Do we really? [laughter] Rob Mineault Do we really? Kimberly Parsley I will tell her,  I will tell her. Steve Barclay Yeah, there’s gonna be beatings. [chuckle] Ryan Fleury Yeah, probably. Yeah, and Liz is in North Carolina, and she has RP, retinitis pigmentosa. Kimberly Parsley Okay. So tell me, I saw that you all are past 400 episodes and that is impressive as someone who, I think this will be like 40 something episodes for me. So tell me, tell me how the podcast began. Rob Mineault You guys want me to tell the story? Well, you know, the podcast, it sort of came about over the lunchroom table. At the time, we were all working for the same assistive technology company. And originally, the plan was to make a podcast centered around assistive technology. And quite often, we find in the assistive technology field that people don’t even know what’s sort of out there, what’s available. And so we thought having a podcast that would highlight and put a spotlight on certain different assistive technologies would be really useful for not only our sort of client base, but just people in general. So that’s how it started. But what happened after probably about, I’m thinking like five, six episodes. We kind of discovered that it was a lot more interesting talking to people in the disability community and different organizations here locally.  So we started that. We started branching out. And that’s where we really found, I think, our passion for the podcast was talking to people and getting them to share their stories and their lived experiences. And really, it just, you know, it seems like nine years has just flown by. You know, that was back in 2016. So, and we’ve just, I don’t know what possessed us to do it weekly. I’m assuming that was something that we came up with early on. And we just stuck with it. You know, one of the big concerns that we had when we initially started it up, we would say to each other, we’re going to run out of people to talk to probably, you know, in a couple months anyways. So let’s just go weekly and we’ll just see how long this lasts. And what we found is that there’s just, there’s no shortage of people in the community to talk to. And no shortage of organizations that are doing some really important advocacy work or assistive technology manufacturers out there that are producing really cool new types of assistive technology. So, you know, and that’s really what the mandate of the podcast has been is just to give all of those people a platform and a way to share their stories. Kimberly Parsley And so why podcasting over something like, is it 2016? You could have done a blog or you could have done a newsletter. So why podcasting instead? Steve Barclay Because all the cool kids were doing it. [laughter] Rob Mineault Well, actually, I don’t know about that. I think when we started, you know, we were lucky enough to get in fairly early. I remember having to explain to people what a podcast was when we first started or even how to listen to it. Because back then, it wasn’t ubiquitous like it is now. So you actually had to explain to people what the hell it was, which kind of gave us a little bit of an advantage because we got in at a time when we were able to sort of build an audience without the competition that there is now. Because that’s the sort of the big barrier, I think, for people who are starting up new  podcasts is just there’s a lot of competition out there with a lot of other podcasters. And it can be really hard to sort of make yourself heard through all that noise. Kimberly Parsley Yeah. Yeah. I still find myself, people who come to disability later in life, I still find myself having to walk someone through how to subscribe to a podcast, how to listen to a podcast.  You know, they asked me, what station is it on? Rob Mineault Yeah, right. Kimberly Parsley So that’s a thing that still happens and probably always will. And I walk people through how to leave reviews, you know, review for the podcast. That’s doesn’t work out so great. [chuckle] Ryan Fleury Yeah, I don’t think we’ve ever had more than three reviews. [laughter] Rob Mineault Yeah, two of them are us. [laughter] Ryan Fleury Exactly. Rob Mineault To go back to answering the question, I think that podcasting itself for us, it was a bit of a natural fit because one of the things that we wanted to do was really be able to have our personality shine through. We wanted to create something that was very casual, funny, entertaining, as well as informative. And we kind of felt like the podcast format is something that allows that. You don’t get that when you’re writing blogs. You can’t really inject personality into it. I mean, I guess you can, but you have to be a very effective writer.  And the podcast allowed us to sort of band together and do something together as a team that would really allow us to sort of portray our, you know, to let our personality shine through in a way that I don’t think any other format really allows for. Kimberly Parsley Right. For good or for ill, the personality comes out, right? [chuckle] Ryan Fleury Well, those shows don’t see the, don’t, don’t— [laughter] Kimberly Parsley Oh, that’s the magic of editing. Ryan Fleury —see the light of day. Rob Mineault There’s only been a couple of them. Ryan Fleury No, some can’t be edited. [laughter] Rob Mineault Some can’t be saved, Kimberly, let me tell you. Especially with this group. Kimberly Parsley So has the cowbell been around from the very beginning? Steve Barclay Uh, no, no, it wasn’t. We brought in the cowbell partway through. I don’t remember how many episodes in, but, it came as part of a brainstorming session. You know, what do we, what do we need for the podcast? And jokingly, following along in the, footsteps of Will Ferrell, I said, needs more cowbell. Kimberly Parsley Right. Yeah, exactly. And now it’s a whole thing. Right. So now, yeah. Rob Mineault It’s a thing. Kimberly Parsley Yeah, absolutely. So for our listeners, if you haven’t yet checked out AT Banter, which you should, and there will be a link in the show notes, they start the episodes with the ringing of the cowbell. And let me tell you, my daughter is a percussionist at the junior high. The cowbell is the instrument all the kids want to play. So it’s the cool instrument is the thing to do is the cowbell. Everyone thinks it’s the drum set. Nope, it’s the cowbell. Rob Mineault So we’ll take credit for that. We’ll, you know, screw Will Ferrell. [laughter] We’ll take credit for the, for the new renaissance of the cowbells. Kimberly Parsley Of the cowbell. Yes, it was it was all you trendsetters, right? [laughter] And so you touch on this a little bit but how did the podcast come to evolve over the years to be less tech specific to other things. Ryan Fleury Sorry, jump in for a minute. So like I mentioned earlier, you know, being that we worked for an assistive technology company, we thought it would be an easy go to. To release episodes and talk about the stuff that we were selling, promoting and training, but we quickly found that others were, you know, doing better than we were able to and expanding our horizons to organizations and hearing about people’s lived experience was a lot more entertaining, but also educational, not just for our audience, but for ourselves. And I think, you know, we gain a lot of insight and information from talking to the various guests, which has really expanded the reach of our podcast, but also our horizons when it comes to disability related issues that people are facing on a daily basis. Rob Mineault For me personally, I mean, I couldn’t even count. I lost count long ago. I like to think that every single episode, we’re learning about something, whether it be a product or an organization or a perspective or a story. I think that it really does have quite a profound personal impact on each of us. And I think that if it didn’t, I don’t know that we’d still be doing it, to be honest. I mean, we do all have a passion for it, but it is also, you know, it’s a lot of work  and resources that go into producing it weekly. And so I think that it really does drive that passion that we have for the community and really lets us get a better sense of what’s actually happening within the disability community. You know, when you look outside of the community. And sort of look in, things to the mainstream public, I think, seem to be working just fine. But when you start to hear stories from inside the disability community, and you really realize that how much work there still is to be done, how much advocacy work, how many systemic problems still exist with, say, you know, down there, it's the ADA. We have our own sort of federal disability legislation that's, that's just recently been passed. But, you know, there's all these things that are that still have an Incredible amount of  work to be done. And I think that for me, anyways, that is it’s always really surprising to hear stories about things like Uber denials or, you know, any number of ableist stories that people are coming to us with. It really does sort of feed into that that passion and that need that the disability community really needs its moment to really sort of get some traction on building some really fundamental systemic changes. Kimberly Parsley When you say Canada just recently passed its disability legislation, how recently do you mean? Ryan Fleury I believe it was 2019. Wasn’t it? Because they were supposed to release their five-year report, I think, last year. Kimberly Parsley In what ways does that differ from the ADA that we have here? Steve Barclay Well, your ADA has teeth, ours have none. Um, the legislation that went through basically was mostly guidelines. It’s like, oh, this is what we want by such and such a date, but if we don’t do it, that’s okay, too. And government right at the beginning of the legislation, it says that government has the right to exempt themselves from the requirements. So it’s largely toothless. It’s a, it’s a token gesture, I would say at best. Kimberly Parsley A couple of things there. I think anyone in the disability community in the United States, when you say our ADA has teeth, I’m sure they scoffed at that because we always say there is no enforcement arm. There is no regulatory oversight of these things. So, wow. Steve Barclay But you do have the ability to sue people if you want to take it that far, whereas I don’t think there’s that ability in Canada. Kimberly Parsley And at least our, our government for the most part, now someone’s going to at me and tell me I’m wrong and please do let me, let me know. Cause those things are important to hear about, but at least our government seems to be making an effort to hold itself accountable to, to those laws. At least again, someone will tell me how it’s not. And absolutely. Let me know that. Cause we need to call, we need to we need to call that out. So is, is there a, I assume it took a lot of a movement to get even what you’ve got, what is this law called? So I can quit calling it an it. Rob Mineault It’s the Accessible Canada Act. Kimberly Parsley I assume there’s a movement of people still trying to push harder. Steve Barclay Oh, absolutely. There’s some really good advocates out there who are really pushing, particularly at government in particular, to comply and to improve their compliance to what they say they want. There’s also, in Canada, there’s also provincial legislation in most provinces around the accessibility issues as well. And sometimes those provincial regs have more to them than the federal regs. Kimberly Parsley Okay. Is that the norm, would you say? Steve Barclay I’m not even sure that every province has one yet, but I think they’re starting to go that way. The major provinces do, and I would say that, yeah, that probably is the norm that they’re going to step in and make theirs a little more stringent than the federal requirements. Ryan Fleury They’re all, I think, pretty much still in their infancy, though, too, right? In developing standards and regulations. Like, didn’t the Accessible BC Act just come in a couple years ago? Yeah, so they’re still very, very young. Kimberly Parsley So what was the difference or was there a notable difference in the lives of disabled people in Canada before the Accessible Canada Act and after the passage of that act? Rob Mineault I don’t know, Ryan, how do you feel? [chuckle] Do you feel your life is radically different now since 2019? Ryan Fleury No. And, you know, again, I think it’s because it’s still in development, right? There’s an act on paper, but what does the act actually do for the disability community in Canada at this point? I don’t think there’s necessarily standards in place. There’s no enforcement in place. There’s no real complaints avenue in place. Like, it’s not there yet, right? So I don’t think it’s made any difference. Kimberly Parsley I am shocked because we tend to think that you guys in Canada are way more civilized than we are. Ryan Fleury Oh, we’re civilized. [laughter] Rob Mineault You’re very polite about that. Polite about our ableism. [laughter] Kimberly Parsley Politely ableist. [laughter] Steve Barclay We say sorry. Kimberly Parsley Sorry, we’re denying your rights. We feel bad about it. Not going to do anything, but we feel bad. [chuckle] Ryan Fleury I’m just one blind person, right? I’m employed and I have health care. There’s people in much more dire situations that may have a different lived experience in dealing with their disability when it comes to the Accessible Canada Act or BC or whatever that may look like, right? I’m just one person and my experience is it hasn’t made a difference to me. Kimberly Parsley We talk a lot here in the United States about the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, and that was kind of the starting, well, I mean, I guess you never know how movements start, right? But that was an important turning point when several people, they took up residence in the federal building in Northern California, disabled people, and fought for, I mean, they just stayed there and didn’t leave until they got this act passed. And so it was a small thing, but in retrospect, it was a big thing. So maybe this will be like that. Ryan Fleury Well, we’ve said many times on the podcast that, you know, the disability community is the largest minority group in the world that anybody can become a part of at any time. And yet we seem to be the quietest group that doesn’t get anything done. Kimberly Parsley Do you think that do you think that’s true or do you think that the media just doesn’t want, it’s not a headline maker? Ryan Fleury Well, yeah, part of me is, you know, I don’t really think, well, I guess depending on the community we’re talking about, some of us just haven’t had our moment yet, right? And whatever that’s going to take to happen, hasn’t happened, and so we aren’t seeing, we aren’t being taken as seriously as the black lives matter when they had their moment or the indigenous communities when a whole bunch of these graves were discovered here in Canada. You know, there’s a lot of things that have taken place and we just haven’t had that moment yet, I think, as a community. And I think the other side of that is, I think the mainstream populace are terrified at how big the disability community is and what the dollars are that it’s going to take to actually implement the changes that we’re all asking for. Kimberly Parsley People who are non-disabled feel like we’re just asking for so much ridiculous stuff, don’t they? And what we’re asking for isn’t really that ridiculous. And it just requires a shift from othering to an understanding that we are all looking for the same thing, which is just to live the best lives we possibly can. Ryan Fleury We want equality, you know. Here in Canada, when COVID hit there, the government released these serve payments to people, a lot of people who didn’t qualify, still got their payments. Disability community, from what I understand, got very little, if any. And most recently, you know, we’ve been fighting for a living wage or a disability benefit and the government, you know, said, well, here’s 200 bucks. So like, we’re just not a priority to the federal government in Canada. And it’s going to take more than education. It’s going to take more than some advocacy. It’s going to take either a Terry Fox again, running across the country, or a Rick Hansen wheeling around the world. It’s going to take another momentous event, I think, for the government to take notice. Kimberly Parsley So are you volunteering, Ryan? [laughter] Ryan Fleury You know, it’s really funny because if I was a different person. I would, but in the last two years, I can honestly say there have been times when I’ve looked at my wife and I said, I’m just going to grab my cane and start tapping my way down the highway. And I’m going to Ottawa and just start, just start the track and see if there’s some momentum that gathers because somebody’s got to do something. Yeah, I don’t know what it’s going to take. Steve Barclay Fortunately, Rob’s taken up the mantle for him. He’s going to swim from Vancouver all the way through the Arctic circle, up the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Then walk the rest of the way to Ottawa. [laughter] Rob Mineault We’ll have to workshop that later. [laughter] Ryan Fleury Steve, I need some time off. [chuckle] Steve Barclay Rob needs a dry suit. [chuckle] Steve Barclay Yeah. Kimberly Parsley Over the course of these many years, in terms of technology, what’s been like the biggest change that you’ve seen? Steve Barclay The power of computing platforms. No question. It’s just, you know, the, what is it? They call it Moore’s Law has carried on through in one way, shape or form for, well, since the seventies. Kimberly Parsley And what does that mean exactly? Steve Barclay It means that the power of your chips gets exponentially stronger over time that’s, I’m doing a terrible job describing that, hang on, not to be confused with Cole’s Law, it’s an observation that the number of transistors on a microchip doubles every two years, it’s a projection, Yeah. And that generally has held true, you know, with minor variations. But, you know, we’re seeing these computing platforms become more and more capable all the time. And now we’re, you know, seeing recognition that they need to have assistive technology built into them. It’s not something that’s just strictly an add-on product at the end of the day. So, you know, we’re making baby steps in the accessibility, but the computers just allow so much more capability than we had back, you know, even in the 80s. Kimberly Parsley And what do you think the effect or the impact of AI will be on technology for people with disabilities? Steve Barclay We’re starting to see it getting integrated into some of our assistive devices now, you know, like having a pair of glasses where you can query your surroundings, you know, ask, you know, how many people are in the room or, you know, what does this menu say, you know, and being able to go into deeper context on that. It’s like, oh, I’m allergic to shellfish. What can I eat on this menu? You know, those sorts of things are very liberating for somebody who previously probably would have had to, you know, ask somebody to read the menu to them and explain things to them. And it’s going to be incredibly powerful. But I think we’re all just in the process of wrapping our heads around what we want to do with it. Kimberly Parsley So you’re all tech people. So I have to ask the question, is it being overhyped, AI? Is it being overhyped? Is it as big a deal as we’re constantly hearing that it is? Rob Mineault I would say so. Yeah, I think absolutely. I think it is going to be a real game changer. Steve Barclay Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s going to be disruptive in a lot of, a lot of different areas. I mean, just— Kimberly Parsley Ooh, disrupt. That’s what we love. That’s what we love to hear. [laughter] Rob Mineault You’re going to be replaced, Kimberly. [laughter] Kimberly Parsley So tell me an example of how you think it’s going to be bigger than what we’re, because, I mean, I’m basically getting that it’s going to replace every human ever doing everything. So tell me an example of some tech that you think it’s going to be bigger. Rob Mineault I got an example of something. Well, so, I mean, in terms of replacing everybody, I mean, I think that, does it have the power to do that? But, I mean, I don’t think that we’ll ever get to that point. I don’t think we’re silly enough to pull the trigger on anything like that. Kimberly Parsley We’re awfully silly, Rob. Don’t sell your sword. [laughter] Rob Mineault Well, we are. I’m hoping. I’m hopeful. That’s the other thing. Among the three of us, I’m the optimist of the group. So I might be the wrong guy to speak to nightmare scenarios. But no, I mean, a great example is, you know, we had some fellows on the show a couple weeks ago that run this shopping platform that they’ve developed using AI called Innosearch. And all it really does is it aggregates a variety of different e-commerce platforms out there. And what it does using AI is it’s able to go into those platforms and strip away all of the built-in ads, all of the, you know, related products, all of the stuff that would clutter up the platform. And it’s able to present it on a web page that’s very, what’s one of my, condensed down into just the product description, just the, the way to order. And so it’s, it’s very screen reader friendly and AI is able to sort of be able to do that on the fly as needed. And I think that those are the types of things that we don’t necessarily think of when you think of AI being able to do. Another great example is that we just recently also talked to somebody who had developed an app for your phone that’s able to use AI to go in and strip away background noise so that people who are hard of hearing are just able to focus in on the voices and being able to sort of dynamically cut out that background noise so they can hear better. So AI, I think that the power of AI is going to be in a lot of ways that you don’t necessarily think about. And I think that for mainstream people who are, you know, who are worried about AI, they’re going to be those are the types of things that, that I think that we, as a show anyways, I’m, I’m excited to talk to more and more, uh, startups that are using AI in this way, because I think that in terms of accessibility, I think that AI is a, is a real game changer. And we’re going to be able to see the effects of that very soon. Like we’re going to, we’re just going to see a completely accessible internet, for example, pictures without alt tags will be a thing of the past because AI built into browsers will be able to dynamically on the fly, describe a picture to a screen reading device or a screen reader. Kimberly Parsley Yeah. I’m pro AI. I don’t want to sound like one of those, you know, the sky is falling kind of people. I just, I am a blind person who benefits from it. And even I’m sick of hearing about it, you know? So. Rob Mineault I think the other, you know, really big, big thing is that that technology is also in its infancy. It’s, you know, it’s doubling. In its capabilities every year so we’re still at the at the beginning of this in terms of what it can do and the power of it, you know. And it’s funny, Ryan and I had a conversation last week, I think, just amongst ourselves, you know, talking about how we’re pretty convinced that they’re actually holding that technology back because it’s getting too powerful like they’re, it’s actually getting to the point where they can’t release something that has all the capabilities that it actually has because it would just be too disruptive to our society. Ryan Fleury Well, I’ve read reports, too, that generating the amount of data AI needs to generate is massive, and they need to build massive server farms in order to be able to provide the amount of power that AI is going to require. So, yeah, if and when that day comes, it is going to be a new world where AI is everywhere. And I think we started seeing that when Siri became available. When we had our smart devices in our homes, it was a little taste of what could be done. And people started adopting smart homes, you know, walking into your house and talking to your smart thermostat. All of that Is just the tip of the iceberg.  And there’s so much more that AI is going to allow us to do that we haven’t even been able to fathom yet. Yeah, it’s just going to be second nature. Kimberly Parsley Yeah, Siri showed us all that we could do and then reminds us every day that she isn’t doing it, correct? [laughter] Okay. So Ryan, very critical question because you love the name of your podcast so much. [chuckle] AT Banter, AT, of course, standing for assistive technology. If you were starting your podcast today and you could start all over and you could name it anything, what would it be? Ryan Fleury Don’t start a podcast. [laughter] Kimberly Parsley You lie. [laughter] Ryan Fleury Yeah, I don’t. Yeah, I’ve tossed that one around for a long time. You know, even trying to come up with different words for AT, like access talk or, you know, different things like that, disability banter, trying to rebrand is difficult because we still talk AT a little bit from time to time. And we do talk to people about accessibility. So the AT, I’ve come around to the AT in Banter can stay, but we’ve also heard from our audience as well that AT Banter is our brand now. We’ve been doing this long enough that don’t bother changing it. AT banter is who we are and just leave it alone. Kimberly Parsley You know, I think podcast names are just like baby names. You know, when you tell somebody what yours is, no one likes them. Everybody’s got an opinion, like I said. Demand and Disrupt and I was thrilled and I love it and it speaks to what I wanted to do but people are like, “Wow, geez, that’s a little bossy, isn’t it?”, you know, or they’ll tell me, “Well it doesn’t sound very kind, it doesn’t sound polite.”, you know, so no one, you’re not going to make everybody happy with, you know, so you’ve done what you’ve done in eight years, 400 episodes, you know, are almost nine years and 400 episodes. I think you’re probably there, you know. And you cannot discount the cachet that the cowbell adds. Rob Mineault True actually if anything yeah we probably just worked the cowbell into the name and Kimberly Parsley Either the podcast, the business, all the things. Tell my listeners where they can find you all. Steve Barclay They can find us online. Our website is www.canasstech.com. That’s C-A-N-A-S-S-T-E-C-H.com. And yes, I deliberately chose that one because I knew that having ass in the middle of the name would make it memorable. [chuckle] Kimberly Parsley There you go. Yes, it works great. Steve Barclay They can reach me personally if they want to at [email protected] or Ryan at ryan@ canasstech.com or Rob at [email protected]. We’re creative as far as email addresses go. [chuckle] They can also find us on Facebook if they look for Canasstech on Facebook or Instagram on both of those. You can find Canasstech on LinkedIn as well, as well as myself. Kimberly Parsley You’re just everywhere. Steve Barclay Yeah, everywhere except Twitter because I refuse to support a particular South African fella. Kimberly Parsley Understood. I’m recently on Mastodon and I love it there. The people are so friendly. Mastodon is great. If you’re not on there, you should be. It’s great. Steve Barclay They’re all refugees escaping X. [chuckle] Kimberly Parsley Yes, that’s what it is. And happily doing so. So, Rob, tell me where we can find Blind Beginnings. Rob Mineault The Blind Beginnings can be found at www.blindbeginnings.ca. And they can find us as well on Facebook and Instagram. And LinkedIn. Kimberly Parsley And the podcast, A.T. Banter. Ryan Fleury You can find the AT Banter podcast at www.atbanter.com. Kimberly Parsley Excellent. Sounds great. I have enjoyed this so much. I appreciate you all joining me to talk. It has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Ryan Fleury Well, thanks for having us, Kimberly. Kimberly Parsley Demand and Disrupt is a production of the Advocado Press Kimberly Parsley With generous support from the Center for Accessible Living Kimberly Parsley Based in Louisville, Kentucky. Kimberly Parsley Our executive producers are me, Kimberly Parsley, and Dave Mathis. Kimberly Parsley Our sound engineer is Michael Parsley. Kimberly Parsley Thanks to Chris Ankin for the use of his song, Change. Kimberly Parsley Don’t forget to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. Kimberly Parsley And please consider leaving a review. Kimberly Parsley You can find links to our email and social media in the show notes. Kimberly Parsley Please reach out, and let’s keep the conversation going. Kimberly Parsley Thanks, everyone.

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