Episode 78: Wisdom, Not Weakness

You're listening to Demand and Disrupt, the podcast for information about accessibility, advocacy, and all things disability.

Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast. I'm your host, Kimberly Parsley.

And I'm your co host, Sam Moore, back. And I don't know about better than ever, but I'm back and Kimberly is back. You know, even though we, you know, we came out with a show a few weeks ago, but it's been slightly longer than that since we've, you know, done one of these intros together and one of these precursors to the guest, if you will. And so we're. We're both a bit out of practice. Kimberly told me before we came on that the record button looked a little different. I'm like. I'm like, kimberly, how can you be seeing anything different than what you normally see? Because you don't see anything at all.

It's a different. It is different. I don't know how, but it is different. Thank you. We did a little. A little trick on y' all the last few month, last couple of months to make y' all think that I was really here, but I wasn't. I was taken off both just to take off some time and do some work.

We're tricky like that. We don't want you. We don't want you folks to figure us out completely.

Nope. Nope. But Sam held down the fort, to which I am grateful. Thank you so much, Sam.

I did what little I can. It was a pleasure to talk to Bethany Curry, the curler, as well as Dr. Amanda Lannan from the University of Kentucky.

Yes, indeed. They were good interviews, great guests, and thank you for. For stepping up and doing that for me. And we have a great guest today. And actually, since we're all. Since we're monkeying with time a little bit here. Anyway, this was. You all get to hear the book launch party for Tina Jackson's book, My Silence Roars.

Yeah, that party, which you and I, Kimberly, were privileged to emcee.

We did way back in. Gosh, it was like March or February. It was a long time ago. Years ago.

Yeah. The weather was still a little chilly, so it would be March probably at the latest, but. But it was a bunch of fun. And Kimberly and I were both privileged to, you know, write Tina's brain a bit and ask her various questions about her life and her book. And so you're going to learn a lot about her. If you heard it, you can relive it. And if you missed it, you can definitely enjoy it and be inspired by Tina's Great story.

You're in for a treat. Tina is wonderful. A lifelong advocate for people with disabilities. Every time she has multiple disabilities, and every time, you know, she got hit with something, she just got right back up.

Yeah, she just always kept on keeping on regardless of the, the obstacles in front of her. So, you know, you, you all will be treated to, to that for sure. And, you know, you're gonna get to relive that fun. Like I said, if, if you were there in our. And our buddy Dave Mathis was in on this with us as well.

He was. He did some readings from the book. He asked Tina some questions. They're lifelong friends. Dave and Tina are.

Yes. Even though Dave's from Louisville and Tina is from Louisa.

I believe she's in Louisiana now. Yeah, she lives in way, way out in Eastern Kentucky.

Right about as far east in Kentucky as you're going to get without landing in West Virginia.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it is. So it was a treat to get to do that. And you all are going to hear our launch party for her book. And you should also go out and purchase her book because it is wonderful. It is called My Silence Roars, and it's by Tina Jackson.

Yes. Nothing like a roaring silence. Just that Simon and Garfunkel. You remember that song Sound of Silence?

I do. I, I, I don't remember it, but I know it.

Yeah, I wasn't there when it came out either. I've heard it plenty of times since, since I have been alive, in fact. You may not realize this, Kimberly, but I guess it's been about 18 years ago, a rock band called Disturbed released a remake of Sound of Silence.

I did not know. I have heard of Disturbed, but I did not know about that song.

I still prefer, Sorry, Disturbed. I still prefer Simon and Garfunkel's version.

I bet, I bet the two versions are very different.

That they are. I mean, they are complete. 180. I mean, there's no comparison between the two other than the same words.

Right, Right. Yeah, I bet they're. Now. Now I want to hear it now. I want to hear.

Yeah, you'll have to hop off here and, and, you know, listen to the song. And next time we get together, Kimberly, you'll have to give me your critique of Disturbs, Sounds of Pilots.

Just, just a whole, A whole new show of me listening to things Sam recommends and giving.

That's it. That's what we're gonna start doing. Every week, I'm gonna give you a song to listen to.

And this time it won't be country, which would be weird to you.

Won't that be a, A nice change of pace?

Well, I like country music fine. You know.

Well, yeah, yeah, we, we know you do, and so we won't steer you completely away from it, but, you know, we'll just. Straw for a little diversity.

Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, in our book launch party with Tina. Sorry, I'm laughing a little bit because every time I dictate book launch, my screen reader hears it as book lunch. Book lunch, book lunch. Everything says book lunch. So it's like I'm over here eating books or something. It's. It just cannot get book launched.

Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of book clubs in our audience that get together and discuss books and.

But I don't think they eat them.

No, but they might, they might go to various restaurants in our listening area and chow down while they're discussing the books.

Maybe, maybe that's what a book lunch is. But so our, our book launch, Tina actually speaks using a communication device and also an iPad. So you're going to hear that, hear her, her, her words coming out in an iPad. So there are a few technical glitches here and there that we have with that. Anybody who uses technology knows that's just always going to happen. But we, we soldiered on and I think we made it work and it came out great, don't you?

Yes. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. And, you know, you'll love hearing what Tina had to say, even out of, even coming out of technology's mouth, if you will.

Yeah. And. And we did a giveaway, and somehow, Sam, you rigged the giveaway so that you won a book. I still haven't figured out how you did it, but I know that you did.

I, I'm not that talented. Normally. I'm not usually talented enough to pull something like that off, but that day I was just extra lucky. And I got a copy of Tina's book, which I went ahead and snagged for my mama, and she's enjoying reading that sub.

Oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. So you did get it.

I did get it, yes.

So Dave did get the books out to everybody.

I did get it. Thanks to the, the marketing guru right there. Hannah.

Hannah. Yes, Hannah was hugely helpful.

Yeah, she was.

Great shout out to Hannah.

Absolutely. Gotta give her props.

So we were talking about, like, the technology that Tina uses and, you know, I don't know, have we talked about AI on here?

We might have touched on it, but I Don't think we talked about it extensively, but I'll tell you, there's almost no escaping it anymore. It's just highly prevalent and, you know, anymore. You know, when I type a random question into a Google search engine, AI normally gives me an answer. Now I don't, I don't completely trust it. Anytime I see an answer from AI, always try to verify it on, on a credible website or something, especially when I'm, you know, looking up stuff for trivia, which I host at, at a local pizza place in Henderson. I never want to put my complete and total faith in AI, but, you know, it serves a meaningful purpose and I know it will continue to evolve and develop in, in years to come. So that'll be fun to track, you know, with those.

Was it AI Overview? Is that what it says at the top of every Google page? Every.

Yeah, I think it is. AI over.

Oh, okay. So according to my daughter, like Gen Z, the kids, they hate AI. Like, at least. Okay, my Gen Z kids hate AI.

So your daughter Sarah despises it.

Despises it. So she went to the doctor the other day, just a little ear, you know, thing, and we, we asked a question about could allergies be contributing? And he said, well, I don't want to tell you wrong. So I think, I think doctors may have special, their own special Google, you know. So he was like looking up to see if a certain allergen could cause the ear problem that, that she was having. And so he picked it up and he was like, I don't know, he, he said something like Google or over AI Overview or whatever. And Sarah like, grabs his phone and she's like, you know what? If you type in your search and then type minus AI, then you can weed all that garbage out. She told him that she did, and he was like, really? And he was thrilled. He was like, thanks for telling me. I'm gonna do that because I don't want to. I don't, I don't want any of that.

Oh, God. So. So she taught him a lesson. But yet, I'm telling you, there ain't. There ain't no filter in that little girl's mouth, is there?

Not. Not even a little, no. So, but. So apparently if you type your search term and put minus AI, then you can get the Google results without the AI Overview or whatever it is.

So, like, what we were getting up until what, about two years ago, I guess.

Yeah, like the old, the good old days of Google, right?

Yeah, the unfiltered Google.

Yeah. Those six months where it was accessible to us, you know, without being garbage. Those. We can get those back.

Yeah, exactly. These are the good old days. Isn't that what Carol King saying back in the day? There's something else for you to listen to when we get off.

There we go. There we go. So. So, yeah, AI. I just got this recording device. It's called a plod. Not Claude, but it's like a plot. It's called P, L, A U D. And it's like a little recorder. And I like it because it's just got one button. It's just like one button and it starts recording and it gives me a little haptic, like a, you know.

Oh. To let you know that it's.

That it's recording.

It's in progress. Yeah, yeah.

And then I hold it down again, and when it stops recording, it's like two, like buzz, buzz, you know, to two haptic vibrations.

So I applaud that description.

Thank you. I do try. I. I'm excited. Now, the first screen readers. The app is, you know, I'm seeing better.

So.

So it's, it's. It's so. So. But for my purposes, I'm hoping I'll figure it's one of those things where you have to dig in and give it some time and maybe figure it out.

So, yeah, that's why they always say, you know, whenever you're adjusting to a new piece of equipment, you never want to say it stinks, you know, after only using it for a few days, whatever, you know, you got to give it a fair chance.

You do, you really do. But I mean, I use. Honestly, I use AI now because of the whole Google thing. I use AI more than I you. I mean, I will just open, like chat GPT and ask that a question. Before that, I will Google just because I'm getting no AI anyway.

Right, right. And, you know, like I said, AI, it's. It's kind of freaky to think about how much it's going to change in years to come. And so, you know, by the time. By the time Sarah gets to college and she's a freshman in high school now, for those of you that don't know, but by the time Kimberly's daughter Sarah gets to college, her professors might actually not mind her doing research using AI.

Or they may just be a. They just may be bots, and just.

That's an even scarier.

I know, right? It may just be all bot college. So. So depending on who you ask, do you think AI is going to save humanity or destroy Humanity. What's your take, Sam?

I'm going to lean more towards save. But I'm going to say this, Kimberly. People have to be smart about it and make sure that they're using it wisely and you know, not abusing it, not being overly reliant on it. Although like I said, AI is going to improve, no doubt. At least ideally it will as time progresses and it's not bad now. But you know, like I said, you type in an answer if you got a research paper that's relying on it, you don't want to completely trust that answer AI gives you because you may, you know, that may lead to a paragraph or two on that research paper that may dock your grade from an A to a B or C or D. Yeah.

And I mean, you know, there's a lot of things that it has helped, has helped disabled people with, so.

Oh yeah.

Things that you can't get nor like you can't get the average mainstream, whatever media corporation business, whatever to do, you can get AI to help out with. You know, describe this. Can you make this website accessible for me and read it to me? You know, things like that.

Yeah, exactly. So it definitely, it has its place and it'll have a, it'll have more of a place, no doubt, as we go along.

Do you remember when the Internet, I mean the environmental problems with AI are real and we certainly can't minimize those. But do you remember when you and I lived through the beginning of the Internet and it was all like people were going to find you on the Internet and they're going to show up in your house and kill you. It was like all ax murderers, right?

Yeah. But people were all hands. They were all hands on deck and everybody was on guard. The main thing I remember about Internet is how slow it used to. We're spoiled now. But when Internet first came out it was, I mean it was slow as Christmas. You remember, you remember the old doll up Internet?

Oh yes, yes indeed.

And you know, you have time. You tried the long gone.

Yeah, yeah. We are getting very into the kids these days of it all, aren't we Sam?

We are, we are. Yeah. Back when, when, when you were in the dorms at Western back in the day, I guess that was probably still the Western have their own dial up Internet.

Not, I mean, no, you had to go to a specific building. There was no WI fi, like you could go get on the Internet in like Grice hall, you know, or whatever.

Oh. So you could either maybe use computers in the lab if there was one in that building. Or you could bring a laptop or whatever.

Well, you weren't get. You weren't getting it in your dorm.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because there was no WI fi in the dorm, so.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

People take for granted that dorm Internet access.

They do.

Privilege to now.

The times, they are a changing.

They are. Whether we want them to or not. In some ways, they're changing for the better. In some ways, you know, we. We have to force ourselves out of our comfort zone to adjust. But, you know, that is we take the good with the bad.

Yep. But, you know, like, like Tina says, she. It's all about adapting and keeping on going.

Your community excelled at.

She has. She has. So I am so thrilled to let our listeners get to hear the launch line.

I am, too. And you know what? I'm also thrilled, Kimberly, for the first time in forever, to remind people of our email address.

Tell us what it is, Sam. I might have forgotten.

You don't think you remember either? Well, here it is. And you folks might want to jot it down in case you, you know, have a one track mind and can't remember 2. It's demandand disrupt gmail dot com. I don't know how we came up with that address, but there it is.

It's just enlightened. It's enlightened.

Moment.

We came up to that. Yeah.

Demanded Disrupt at gmail dot com. And we love hearing from our. What we call them disruptors. Kimberly, you remember?

We do. We do. I love to hear from the disruptors. Let us know what you think. If you read Tina's book, let us know what you thought about it. Yeah.

And you can also pass along songs that you'd like for Kimberly to listen to between now and now next time

we talk to you or for Sam to sing on the podcast.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I see what. I see what we're doing here. I have to approve the song, though.

All right, gang, thank you so much. It's great to be back. Sam will do it again.

We will. Please, gang, don't. Don't make me sing any Whitney Houston.

Yeah, please, gang, don't make him sing Whitney Houston. All right. Enjoy my interview or my launch party with Tina Jackson. My Silence Roars. Wonderful book. I have read it. I read early copies. I read recent copies. It's. They're all wonderful. Just got better and better as time went on. Thank you. I just want to let everyone know who all is leading, who all you're going to be hearing from. I am Kimberly Parsley. I am the Host of Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast, and work for the center for Accessible Living here in Bowling Green. We also have on the call my co host, and that is Sam Moore, also host of Blabbing in the Bluegrass. Sam, say hello.

Thank you so much, everybody, for coming and being a part of this book launch party. It's a. It's a history maker for me, too. I've never been a part of a book launch before.

And then, of course, we have the. The lady of the hour. We have Tina, wonderful friend, advocate, just all around wonderful person, now published author. Hey, Tina. And assisting Tina is going to be her. Her friend, Amanda. Hello, Amanda Endicott. And I am told that Mark Haynes ducked out at the last minute, so. Yeah, he had to go to an appointment today. Okay. Okay. Did see. Did Tina have something she wanted to say? No. Okay. And we also have joining us, Dave Mathis, who was integral to the whole publication process, and he's been with Advocado Press for years and years and years. Retired. Everyone knows him. Dave, say hello to the fine folks.

Hello, everyone.

Dave will be. I'm gonna try to keep him from talking a lot, y', all, but it. It's a thankless job trying to keep Dave from talking.

Yeah, I know.

And then we have Hannah Richards. She is marketing guru at the center for Accessible Living. She has been so helpful to getting this off the ground. And I want to say a special thank you to her for all her knowledge, her just willingness to help anything we asked for. So, Hannah, thank you so much. You all. Anybody else? I've forgotten, y'.

All.

Is that everybody?

I think that's the principals.

Okay. And I am blind. I'm going to be using a screen reader. So any pauses there in the middle of things is just me checking notes and reading along. And so that just pauses are, you know, just good things in general. When you're disabled, you gotta give a little breathing room.

Right.

Give it some time. So.

So, Kimberly, can I interrupt for a second?

Wow, that didn't take you long.

No, it didn't. It did.

Go for it, Dave, since you mentioned

that Tina is speaking with her iPad today, so there might be pauses caused by that also.

Okay, great. So. And. And that's just fine. We will just get through that and we will go right on along. And Dave will probably interrupt a couple more times, but we're all used to that. Well, the first thing is, I believe Tina has chosen a couple of passages from the book, I think, for Dave to read. So, Dave, are you ready to read those and let us hear from the book.

Well, I hope I can do it justice. I know that Tina is going to talk a lot more about the book when she answers questions later. So I hope these two that we got to start off do some a little justice to it. One thing Tina talks about in the book is her gratitude to her parents and how they raised her to be independent and do things on her own. So I got a little excerpt from that. It's early in the book and this is Tina speaking, of course. When I was learning to be mobile on my own strength, I'd sit on the floor and pull myself from place to place with my good side. To any observers, it looked like I was working hard. My mother tells the story of when her sisters would visit and watch me strive to get where I was going. My aunts would cringe and say, how can you just sit there and let her struggle? I'm going to pick her up. No, my mother would say, she has to learn to do things herself. This was how my mother taught me to face obstacles. Pretty soon I was able to pull myself up on furniture and take a few steps clean to a chair or table. I'd usually fall and look back at my audience with a grin on my face and then crawl back over to try again. This is the way I learned most things. I was left on my own to figure it out. Developing and adapting ways to do tasks which normally require two hands has been an ongoing process for me. I'm immediately reminded of the Christmas I received my first tricycle when I was about five. No one was sure if I could manage riding it with one good hand and one leg and a heavy brace, but I was thrilled and eager to try. The first attempt to get on and position my feet was successful and I began to pedal. The wheels started turning and I felt had mastered it, but then I realized I couldn't get the steering right. Since I didn't use my left hand, I automatically steered to the right. My starting point always led me straight into the corner of the kitchen and into a trash can, over and over again. Then finally I got it. I took off through my chosen path and just before I arrived at the can for another blow, I took a sharp left, missed the can and continued down the hall. I stopped and looked back to see everyone plotting my new skill. Dad was filming on an old 8 millimeter camera and we've laughed at my determined ride many times since then. My dad always told me that when I was learning to ride a two wheeled bike, I begged him to take off the training wheels long before he was comfortable with my ability to balance on my wheels on two wheels only. Somehow I convinced him that I was ready to ride without help. He walked with me up and down our little street in Westwood while I rode the bike, learning to control the steering and my balance. Apparently neighbors along the street watch us as we made pass after pass by the houses. On one occasion one neighbor, Mrs. McKenzie, stepped out and told dad, I'm really pulling for Tina to learn to ride that bike. It helped having some cheerleaders in my corner. And I think that last sentence is significant because Tina talks a lot about and I in this other reading, you know, I have a little talk about interdependence and having people in your corner and getting help. So that's early in the book and I'm going to do read one more thing if that's okay. Kimberly, Another short one.

Sure, absolutely.

This comes later in the book. Tina speaking again. Inter the Independence can be a wonderful feeling of freedom, empowerment. But it can also be a harmful and rigid state of mind that robs the disabled the opportunity to ask for help. Independence is achieved after a long hard battle and becomes part of a person's identity according to society. I was a success and I did not want to let go of that identity or be part of thought of as a failure or as weak. When it became undeniable that to keep my quality of life I had to work so hard to achieve and maintain, I had to seek out resources for help. Help was a word I avoided. I took pride in my autonomy. Living with a lifelong disability and struggling to do all I needed to get done led me to deep depression and frustration. There was a shame I felt for asking for help. After a lot of prayer and self examination of my life and accomplishments, it was time I adjusted my thoughts. I redefined my idea of self and added a novel word to my vocabulary, interdependent. I learned what it meant to be interdependent. It is an actual movement within a disability disability justice community. It emphasizes the idea that we all rely on each other to create inclusion. It takes the focus off the individual and puts it on the barriers around them. I now challenge myth that independence equals strength. Interdependence is not weakness, it's wisdom. We in a disability community thrive through connection, creativity and collective care. True inclusion means designing a world where support is celebrated, not hidden. It is a perfect way to use my new voice. I used to think independence was the go that needing help meant I was falling short. But I've come to see that my voice, though non verbal, is amplified through others, through technology, through allies, through systems that listen. I am not less because I rely on support. I am more because I know how to build bridges. My story isn't about standing alone, it is about standing together. It has been my experience that exposure is the greatest teacher. The people come in my home to help me have expressed that Mark and I are the first disabled people they have met in a meaningful way. They have also learned the difference between independence and interdependence. It has been a powerful way to advocate for disability awareness. Plus I am able to stay active in my community. So that's what we had.

Kimberly Wonderful. Those are some great words of wisdom from Tina's book and it is full of powerful stories about Tina, her life growing up, her challenges, setbacks, ultimately the way forward, and then the lessons she's learned along the way. Like that interdependence is very important. I just read an article in Psychology Today. I believe it was about independence versus interdependence and fascinating. So Tina, you're a trendsetter as usual. So now we we are. I'm going to ask some questions of Tina. Sam and I are and just find out more about her. Let you all know a little more about the book. So Tina has communication challenges and yet Tina, you went on to do the one thing that I think would be the most, the scariest thing of all and that is you sought out and joined a Toastmasters group. So can you tell us what is Toastmasters and about your experience with that group?

Toastmasters International is a headquartered non profit educational organization that operates clubs worldwide. The purpose of the organization is helping people develop communication, public speaking and leadership skills. Most clubs accept guests for free. To get a Toastmasters experience, every meeting is based on a set of organized speeches. Speakers are given feedback, often by a more experienced member who then gives an impromptu speech with constructive feedback based on their performance. I became aware of the organization while working in Cincinnati at AT&T. A lady whom I met there knew sign language so we became good friends. I thought of her as a mentor as well. She was a longtime member of Toastmasters. The Cincinnati club met in our office building. I was invited to attend the next meeting. I had enjoyed public speaking when I was able to speak, so I was interested. Rita, my friend, came up with a plan for me to participate in the club. I would write the speech, learn it and give it to the club in sign language with Rita as my interpreter. On the day of my speech, my boss Attended. The content of the first speech was to introduce yourself. Kind of like an autobiography in seven minutes. I wrote my life story as a journey to have my own bathroom. I took the listeners through growing up with three sisters and one bathroom. My college dorm. Sharing a bathroom with the whole floor. Living in a rehabilitation center with one communal bathroom on a floor. Then I got my first apartment during college. It was a real deal at 85 bucks a month. It was one big room with a kitchenette, a table for two and a twin bed. But if you walk down the small hallway, there was a tiny bathroom with a shower. A lifelong goal. Finally realized, the speech was a hit. I continued to do speeches until the job ended. I want to know how in the world you learned to ride a bike, my Toastmasters intern.

Oh gosh, that's a great story. I'll tell you. Maybe I could probably use some Toastmasters International myself. Don't you think so, Kimberly? Because I don't talk much and this would really be a golden opportunity for me to broaden my skill set a bit. But anyhow. And I can relate to your story about the community style bathrooms too, because I had one of those my freshman year of college before I moved up into a dorm with my own private bathroom my sophomore year. And from that point on. So yes, we got to. We've got a little bit of common ground there for sure, Tina. But anyway, Dave highlighted in your passage there the time that you received a trike as a gift. And so I just want to know how on earth it was, Tina, that you learned to ride a bike.

My father got me a tricycle for Christmas when I was about five. No one was sure if I could ride it with a big brace on my leg. I kept trying to swing my leg with the leg brace and get some on the seat. I finally figured it out and took off across the floor. Because of my left hand limitations, it took me a while to learn to steer correctly. With this skill learned, my dad got me a two wheeled bike with training wheels. We would ride up and down our street with dad walking beside me. After I felt comfortable on the bike, I begged him to take off the training wheels. He did so reluctantly. I got on the bike with dad holding me up. We went up and down our street until he gradually supported me less and less. He let go of me and I realized I was doing it all. I pedaled up and down, but dad had neglected to teach me how to stop. I crashed into a neighbor's car. I was embarrassed more than hurt. Again, I got Back on with the knowledge of how to stop. I did not know it, but everyone on my street was watching my progress. They would tell dad I am rooting for her. We moved to the country and I had to learn new bike skills to ride on gravel up and down hills. This took lots of practice. Riding up and down the holler, I could ride just so far. Then my one handed steering grip came back to mess with me. I could ride to my neighbors, but every time I tried to pass her house, I ended up in her rose bush. She would always come out, help me back on my bike and say keep trying Tina and give me a fresh baked cookie. When I did learn to steer away from her roses, she was out clapping her hands. It made me feel as though I could do anything. So riding a bike meant independence and strength. When I was no longer able to balance on a bike, it made me very sad. I was thrilled when my new boyfriend, who else? Mark Jackson, customized a three wheeled adult trike to accommodate my needs. I am still riding my trike around town, still getting cheers from kids, still feeling the air on my face and still moving.

Tina, one of the things that I think is commonly talked about in the disability community is learned helplessness. So. But your parents did not teach you helplessness at all. So I want to know about your parents and how they encouraged you.

I was blessed to have two very enlightened parents who made an effort to look up and research resources for me. My family is made up of strong women, starting with grandmothers who were hard working and raised over 10 children each during the Depression era. My mother was just as strong. She realized that if I was ever going to be independent, I had to learn to do for myself. So I was included in family chores and trusted to make my own decisions. She would make me get up myself. If I fell to the horror of her sisters who begged her to let them pick me up, she would say no, she has to do for herself. I was allowed to fail, but not to give up. I will be forever grateful for my family who did not see disability, only opportunities to learn, adapt and set goals. So I had a tangible vision of the future, one goal at a time. Plus, living on a farm gave me 100 acres to learn to hike, climb and ride bikes on gravel. I was not just given things I wanted. My father would say if you save your allowance and can pay half the cost, I will pay the other half. I really wanted a TV of my own. I think it was about $50. So I saved every cent I received for what seemed like years. I finally had $25 and I got my little black and white 12 inch TV that only picked up two channels, but it was mine. I was allowed to ride my bike alone, go for miles and miles to visit friends. I think back on how they just let me go for hours by myself on my bike or for long walks to a little country store for ice cream. Being alone was not hard for me. I was trusted to do the right thing. It meant so much that I was not sheltered. When I was old enough to go to college, I was surprised by how many of my peers did not know how to make a bed, write a check, or manage money. My parents talked to my sisters and me about the future. We were expected to go to college after one year or get a job because at 18 years old, we were to be out of the house. No exceptions for me. I was expected to find my own path. I did, but had to return to them a few times for health reasons. I only stayed long enough to regroup, make a plan, and leave again. That message played over and over in dark times. We are here for you, but you need to figure it out for yourself. You have complex disabilities. Tell me about those and how they began.

That's the next question. That's the next question. See y'.

All.

We had a script for this. Sam, do you want to ask the next question? Yes, we can hear you now. I was going to ask if Dave got muted, but then you don't want to start Dave talking again, so.

Well, some people tell you they don't really want to hear me either. But that's a great story about. About how your parents, Tina, allowed you to, you know, exit your comfort zone and do things that, you know, even your siblings thought were a little scary, but it enables you to grow and maximize your confidence and independence moving forward. Now you have Tina complex disabilities, so talk about those, if you would, and how they began.

Yes, I am a person with complex multiple disabilities. Let us start from the beginning. I was born in 1956 at a time when little was known about brain damage. It is believed that my brain was deprived of oxygen while in my mother's birth canal. The doctor was not available, and at that time, nurses could not deliver babies without a doctor present. It is reported that when I was finally delivered, my lips were blue and I was having petit mal seizures. Medication controlled the seizures and I was sent home with no clear diagnosis, with two very heartbroken and confused parents. As I grew, it was clear that my manner of birth resulted in brain damage. That caused limited use of my left side, a slur in my speech, and some learning disability. It took almost two years to find a doctor who could define my condition. At my first appointment with a new pediatrician, I was sitting on the examination table when Dr. Guy Cunningham entered the room. He took one look at me and declared, this girl has cerebral palsy. This news was bittersweet. My condition finally had a name, but my future was still unknown and scary. Dr. Cunningham referred my parents to resources that I would need speech and physical therapy and a special class for disabled children to learn to do activities of daily living. My parents did extensive research on disability, and it was even discussed that we moved to California, which offered many more resources for people with disabilities. I did well in kindergarten and preschool, so the move to California was unnecessary. I did finish public school and college. I experienced difficulties in school. However, I did complete public school and earned a degree in social work. Classwork was always a challenge, so I was always unsure of my ability to actually hold a job. Not only was I academically challenged in school and it was never addressed, but I also knew that with only one hand, my productivity on a job would be significantly hampered. That would prove to be true. This led me to the next complex disability. After working as a social worker for a year in my 20s, I started having seizures. It was a side effect of a new medicine for depression. I quit my job and decided to go back to college to learn new job skills. The fall semester at Eastern Kentucky University in 1980 was full of promise and anticipation. If I had known of the unfortunate events that would conclude that school term, I would have returned to the security of my home. I was at East Kentucky University to earn a second degree, an associate's degree in medical records technology. I had completed a degree in social work a few years earlier, but after working in the field for a short time, I realized I wasn't suited for the job. It was too stressful, and the stress manifested itself in physical illness and seizures. I thought that if I combined my social work degree with my medical records degree, I could work in a hospital medical records department and still be in an environment that helps people. The semester commenced with great excitement for new challenges, a new community, and a promising future. However, a month into my schoolwork, I fell down a flight of stairs carrying a load of laundry to my room. I experienced a hit on the head. I made it to my room and continued my work. My roommate convinced me to go to the hospital for a checkup. I went to the er, and since I was talking and walking. The physician in the ER did not do any X rays to check for internal bleeding, but headaches continued and I began to experience short term memory loss. I was losing things or forgetting where I parked my car, something I might call senior moments Now. I kept attending classes even though the lesson content did not stick. The memory I have now of that time is patchy. However, I do remember some things with punishing clarity. I remember receiving a telephone call from a friend in another city. I thought, thank God someone knows where I am. I had begun to feel as though I was living in a time ward and no one would ever find me. Yet I still did not seek help. Another haunting memory is when I finally realized that I needed to call for help. I went to a telephone booth to call my parents. And as I stood there with the phone in my hand, I realized I had no idea how to use a telephone. I tried to reconstruct the steps to make the call, pick up the phone, insert a coin, dial. The words went through my mind, but my brain couldn't grasp their meaning. Angry and frustrated, I sank to the bottom of the booth, sobbing and praying. By the end of the second month, my memory problems increased. I found myself in places without recalling how I got there. Living in a new community. The people around me did not have a frame of reference to judge my condition. There was no one to alert me or my family of my deteriorating health. I would lose my balance and fall several times. I still tried to attend classes. While any reasonable thinking person would have sought medical attention. In my weakened mental and physical state, I really did not know how badly I needed help. I was terribly confused. Somehow I know it was God helping me. I made it back to my room. My roommate called my parents and they came to pick me up the next day. I must have been a shocking sight to my parents. I remember riding home in the backseat, curled up in my father's lap as he stroked my hair, saying, we got you now. The next few months after my departure from East Kentucky University were filled with doctors, exams and medications. It is still a blurry, foggy part of my memory. Some doctors thought I probably had a stroke. Some thought I suffered brain damage from one of the falls. The but no new brain damage could be detected on brain scans. I believe I bled in the brain after the steps causing all the new damage, but doctors can't confirm it. Despite going to the hospital at the college, the doctor did not X ray which would have shown I had a brain bleed. I wish I had insisted on a scan, but in My condition I could not advocate for myself. I was taken to the UK medical center for a neurological examination. They found no new brain damage beyond the original cerebral palsy. During this dark period, I was losing my speech in a gradual progression and part of my vision. In time I would not be able to speak and I would lose my left peripheral vision in both eyes. After two years at home, recovering from everything and on the right medication, I was ready for another new beginning. I went to the Perkins Training center for new job skills. I was mute, had problems eating and drinking, but was still hopeful. I took a vocational course in office administration. I secured a job in Cincinnati as a Data clerk at AT&T. I knew the area well as I graduated from Northern Kentucky University in 1977. The data clerk job did not require speech, but I used communication devices with my co workers. I was hoping to retire there. I loved my job, living alone, having many friends and an active social life. However, six years later, I was laid off along with many other people. Again, I was faced with another new start. God was by my side. The company paid for two years of college. I thought really more schooling. But I packed up and moved to North Carolina to be with my sister and attend a community college to finish my medical records degree. I was still non verbal and trying to eat. Upon completion of my degree, I was immediately offered a job in my hometown at a nursing home. I thought, okay, God, can I stay in one place with no interruptions. I was good for about four years until my body started attacking me again. Eating became more and more difficult. Pneumonia was a real threat due to aspiration. The 40 hour work week proved to be too much for me. I weighed less than £100. I had to quit my job to address my eating problem. I was placed on a feeding tube. In the meantime, anxiety took over my thoughts causing me to have mobility problems and the need to stop driving. I use a power chair now. There you have it. The history of my complex disabilities. Lord, let it end now. No more changes.

Wow, Tina, Disability it. So many of us probably on this call. No, it is the gift that just keeps on giving and yet you ever return it. You know that is. That. That's so scary. It's so scary. I think about you in the, in the phone booth not knowing how to, how to make a call. That, that is so terrifying. I mean I think Sam and other visually impaired people know what it's like to just be out somewhere not knowing sort of where you are, what you're doing. But most of the time we have A cane or a dog to explain it to people. So. Yeah, but not having that. Not. Not. And it's something so many people with hidden disabilities face. Not not being able to explain your needs, what situation you're in, or even what help you need in that regard. That is terrifying.

Yeah. Something as simple as making a phone call, we often take that for granted.

We do. Something you said earlier was you were allowed to fail, but you weren't allowed to give up. And by golly, you didn't, Tina. You just never did. It is definitely inspiring. One thing I want to ask about is a question you asked in the book of a friend you were with. And that being, who's the hippie in the choir? The hippie in the choir's not here, so we can talk about him, can't we?

Yeah, we can spread vicious rumors about

it if we wanted to. We sure could.

The guy I saw that day with long hair and a bushy beard looked so different from the others in the choir. But I could see that people were very fond of him. Everyone excepted him. He piqued my interest because I was a bit of a hippie myself. Little did I know that we would be married years later. Because I had never desired to be married. I was very happy in my single life. I asked my sister about him because she had worked with him in church youth groups. She assured me that he is very smart. I saw him again at a bike tour where I was registering cyclists. We started sitting together in church, which started a talk about us. I actually had a few elderly ladies come to me to say, you be good to Mark. He is a good man. I thought, okay, I am a good person, too. I started attending Bible study at his apartment along with others from the church. I kept my eyes peeled for any hippie paraphernalia. I saw none. But I learned his taste in music was the same as mine. At last, I found the hippie in him. He knew the words to some of my favorite songs and some oddball, funny songs that my dad would sing to us in the car. We started doing things together, renting movies. This dates us taking walks, sharing stories of our childhood. I learned he had a brain trauma at 16 in a motorcycle accident about the same time that I had my stroke. We believe God was preparing us to be together. We share the same impairments. We have learned, each in our own way, how to cope, adapt, and find strength to carry on. I can say I have dated a few men, but what I felt for Mark was different. I saw him as a partner in life to share everything. My mom would say you looked east coast to west coast. Denmark looked from north to south. We had to come home to finally meet 27 years later. I am glad I asked my sister who is that hippie in the choir?

What a great, great story. You know I'm single, so don't, don't lean to me for relationship advice or anything. But I will say that, you know, a lot of times true love hit you when you least expect it and in the sources that you least expect it to to come from. And your case definitely demonstrates that. And it's great that you found somebody that you have so much in common with and even a few similar struggles and challenges and, and it's great that you've been able to enjoy such a successful and fulfilling marriage to the hippie in the choir all those years. So anyhow, Tina, tell me now about the book and it was very important to you, I know. Of course. It's called My Silence Roars. Tell me why the book was so important to you to write.

I It has been a goal for many years to write a book. Many people have encouraged me to tell my story through the years, but I thought it was vain to think that I have had a book worthy life. I often saw books laying in a dollar store reduced to a dollar. I thought I know these authors thought they had a book worthy idea and here it lies in $1 discount bin. Would mine end up in a discount bin? I continued to write poems, essays and even had one article published in a magazine, Kentucky Explorer, on the elopement of my grandparents in the 1920s. I have taken online classes in writing for years hoping to start the book. As I aged, I realized that I really did have a story to share and I finally was comfortable enough to end my book with an invitation to roar with me. Also, I wanted to shed light on the disability community in a way to inspire others to pay attention to the injustices such as health care. I finally was comfortable with on how to End my book. I am 69 and I am ready to share my story with others in hopes that someone will have a deeper understanding of disability. All people in a more accepting way and want to be involved in advocacy and social justice, especially young people. Our future depends on our young people to appreciate the need to be involved. As you turn the last page of this book, I hope that you have a better understanding of disability and disability advocacy, which is not only important but also essential. The job of advocacy means you learn to roar alongside many other disabled voices you can help tear down walls of exclusion. Demand that society see disability not as a limitation, but as a strength. And when disabled voices are not heard, it is time for all of us to make a noise. We will roar like lions together.

Wow, Tina, that just gives me chills hearing you talk about that. And guys, if you know someone young in your lives, maybe, maybe buy them a copy of the book. I'm guilty of the whole kids these days thing because it seems like they have it so much easier than I had it. I lost my sight in 1990, pre Internet and everything, and. But, you know, it's still hard because kids are kids and emotions are emotions. But I think it would be good for, for kids to see what Tina went through, how she overcame it, and maybe it says to them how, how. How many more opportunities they have to take advantage of.

Yeah, it puts challenges and struggles into perspective for them.

It does.

It.

It absolutely does. So, yeah, Tina, you say something very profound in the book, and I, I've jotted down because I kind of pinned it to the top of my notes because it was so profound. And I want you to elaborate on it. You say asking for the easy way is a sign of wisdom, not weakness. So can you tell me what you mean by that? Asking for the easy way is a sign of wisdom, not weakness.

I challenge the idea that many of us were taught that the hard way is always the better way, that struggle is noble, that ease is lazy, and if something comes easily, it must not count. The disabled have learned and lived a very different truth, that the easy way is the smart way. What is labeled as easy when in reality they are thoughtful and strategic and rooted in deep self knowledge. When a disabled person uses a mobility aid, that's not weakness, that's wisdom. Protecting joints, preventing injury, and preserving energy for what actually matters. When someone uses AAC instead of forcing speech, that's not giving up. It is choosing clarity, autonomy and dignity. When a person takes the accessible route instead of the stairs, that's not laziness. It is to honor their body. And refusing to struggle. Disabled people are often pressured to push through, to try harder, to prove themselves. But the truth is not every challenge deserves a battle. Wisdom is knowing which ones do and which ones don't. Accessibility itself is the easy way. And that's the point. Ramps, captions, power chairs, grab bars, flexible schedules, sensory friendly spaces. These are not luxuries. They are tools that remove unnecessary barriers. They make life smoother, safer, and more equitable. And when disabled people choose these tools, they are not being weak. It is being smart, resourceful. They are experts in their own bodies. When disabled people choose the easy way, they are not taking shortcuts. They are choosing sustainability, safety and self knowledge. They are choosing to thrive rather than merely survive. And that choice is not just wise, it is powerful.

Very well put, Tina, for sure. I tell you, it's great that you bring that up. And it should definitely encourage everybody to utilize the resources available to them to accommodate their disabilities. I've heard that old saying, don't work harder, work smarter. And I guess it's not completely, completely fair to compare this to that, but it's sort of along those same lines and those same principles. You know, you've got to use what, what resources you have because you're, you've got enough struggles and, and challenges with your disability. And most people who have disabilities do have enough challenges. So, you know, utilize the available outlets and, and avenues that can make your life easier and safer and protect yourself in a lot of cases as well. And it's great that you're committed to advocacy, Tina, because that's part of the goal of our demand to disrupt podcast as well, to promote the advocacy efforts of people in the disability community. And I know that you have definite goals and aspirations along those advocacy lines in the future. So talk a bit, if you would, Tina, about what the future of advocacy holds for you.

Let's see. Dave, do you want to talk maybe about the Advocado Press and its history, how the book came about? Do you want to go ahead and talk about some of that while we're waiting for Tina to get to her

last question and I'll try to make it quick?

Okay. I doubt it, but okay.

The Avocado Press has published Tina's book. The press was to create, formed in 1980 in Louisville by a group of three women and basically it was performed to publish the Disability Riot Bi monthly magazine, which was printed, published for 24 years and, and during the 80s became kind of the mouthpiece of the movement to make transportation accessible for all people with disabilities and actually gathered kind of a national reputation at that time. They discontinued publishing the magazine in 2004, but printed a few books after that. I had spent 1993 publishing the magazine, so the women were wanting to basically get out of the business. They turned everything over concerning the Avocado Press to me in the center for Accessible Living to keep. And we decided to publish, try to publish again after a period of dormancy. So we printed published, as Kimberly already said, a Celebration of Family Stories of Parents with Disabilities, which Kimberly tried to bribe me to make her the first chapter, but I was. I was just too honest for that. So she understands, I'm sure. Yeah. We were looking for other books. We were looking for other possibilities of publishing. And Tina and I talked. Tina, I go back a few years when Mark was on the Statewide Council for vocational rehabilitation 25 years ago, and she was interested in publishing a book. She had a series of essays she wanted to publish, and they were standalone essays, but we kind of worked. Tina kind of worked on making them a coherent narrative and a memoir, basically. And believe it or not, we worked about three years on this, maybe a little bit more, because, you know, life has other ideas, and we just. Tina got occupied with other things and we got distracted many times, but we finally prepared it for publish publishing the end of last year. And it's available, as many of you know, on Amazon. Avocado Press decided early on to publish through Amazon because it's. Well, you don't have to buy any inventory because they only print when you. It's ordered. So it is available on Amazon, but it's also available from Amazon to bookstores. So we are trying to encourage some independent bookstores to maybe to sell the book either by purchasing through Ingram, which is the one who sells at wholesale now, or by doing a consignment with us directly because we can buy a number of the copies that cost. And also, if anybody ever wants any group discounts on a purchase of more than one book, you can. You can talk to us about that, too.

Yeah, And I think we're going to be. We're working with the audible to get an audio copy. And I think, Dave, if we reached out already to the Kentucky Talking Book Library.

No, I saw your post today and that reminded me we need to do that. So if you've got some. If you have a specific person to contact, we'll talk about this later. Yeah.

Okay. So people who are visually impaired will be able to have that through the library. We would love to help libraries all around Kentucky get copies. So if there's anywhere that you think that Tina's book would be good, it could be libraries or disability studies programs, anything like that. Let us know. We would. We would love to get her words out there to everyone.

I have also listened to books on Alexa. I have had Alexa's sweet voice read me books. So if you, you know, you can Kindle Library, whatever they call it, and Alexa, if you have one, can. And there she goes. I just activated her.

You summoned her.

There is a kindle version available on Amazon also.

Okay, so that's an option. But you know, it's still, you know, as much as I do love her, the A lady, I guess we should call her. As much as I do love her, it's great to have a human voice read as well. So keep your eyes open, ears peeled for library availability. Kentucky talking book, library and audible and so forth.

Okay, Tina's ready.

Awesome.

I think I can end the book. But advocacy never ends. I would like to stay involved in the ongoing battle for disability justice, inclusion, accessibility and affordable health care. But more importantly, I want to take some role as a mentor and inspire the next generation of young people to get involved in advocacy. The future scares me as I see our rights systematically taken. If we do not act, we will lose life saving services. I would like to do more public speaking and writing, teach sign language, attend conferences on disability. I would like to create community projects to promote inclusion and help newly disabled people and their families to navigate the resources they are going to need. I would also like to try to start painting again. I would like to see my family more and take more nabs.

Couldn't we all use more naps?

Absolutely. So some of you turned in some questions earlier when you registered. So I'm wondering, Tina, are you prepared to answer some of those or do you want us to go straight to giving away some books?

Yeah, painting is another invaluable skill that many of us wish we had. If Kimberly and I tried to paint, it would be an interesting picture. We'll just leave it at that.

Dude, I watch Bob Ross for the chill of it and I love it. And I'm like, dang, that would be so cool. Wouldn't that be so cool?

I used to paint occasionally when I was little with the great assistance, I guess because I just. I guess because I just wanted to get messy like all my classmates. I just didn't want to be left out. But anyway, it's. It's great that Tina has such high aspirations. And I'd say yeah, yeah, I'd say the future of advocacy is quite bright, especially with our friend Tina playing such an active role in it.

Yeah. And we have. Center for Accessible Living is starting the ky Kentucky Advocacy in action, I believe is what it's called trying to work on an advocacy network across the state. So, yep, there's plenty opportunities to get involved in advocacy. Lots of need, lots of opportunity.

Make your voices heard, Pete.

Absolutely.

Hi, everyone.

Okay, everyone. Is she ready for. Yes, ready. Did she want to answer some of those questions? Yes.

Yes.

Awesome. Thanks, Tina. Sorry about that. So, Hannah, do you have some of those questions that a few people wrote in? And thank you all for that, by the way. Yes, I do. So the first one says, congratulations on your book. Tell us more about the meaning of the title, which I know you kind of went over, but if you could, you know, talk a little bit more about that. I cannot speak, but I like to. Noise. Noises. Make noises. We'd love to hear you, Tina.

Yeah, silence. Silence is more powerful than yelling a lot of times.

Yep. In the right places.

She said in the right places. Yes.

Is there another one, Hannah? Yes.

What part of the book was most

meaningful or the most challenging for you to write?

Tina, do you want me to answer that one? Because we talked about that earlier.

Yes.

Sorry about that.

Yes. Tina got this question late, so she told me the answer in terms of the part that was hardest for her. I think the most. The hardest part was bringing back these spotting memories of my time at Eastern Kentucky University. After my fall, I was never so confused. As I look back now, I realize the danger I was in trying to do normal things like driving. And that's her response to that question, is that the. The most difficult part of writing the book was the experience at Eastern. At Kentucky University.

Well, a lot of times we try to deny that we have problems. I know she said after she fell, she went right back to her room and. And picked right up with homework and stuff and. And was doing okay. So a lot of times we, you know, we have a problem, we either push it aside or, you know, try to convince ourselves that we don't have one. And blurriness of the memory makes sense, too, given what was going on. I know what you did remember was, you know, tough to think back on and look back on, but a lot of us can learn a great deal from even that aspect of your story, Tina.

He said, right. So we are going to give away some books, y'.

All.

Thank you so much for joining us. Stay put, though, because we are going to give away some books. Hannah has found a handy dandy web web randomizer. So we are going to. Is it going to be numbers or names, Hannah? It will be names. I put everyone who registered in a.

It's called wheelofnames.com and then I shuffled

them up a couple times, and so I will click spin and it will land on someone's name.

Wheel of Names.

Here we go. First one. Tina said, thanks, guys. Thanks for coming.

Thank you. Thank you. To Tina.

Absolutely. She said, you're welcome.

Maybe we Need a drum roll.

It is spinning. It's spinning.

Good job, Tina.

Sam Moore.

Oh, the co host. The co host gets a book.

Awesome. Alrighty. There you go.

I will put my email.

I'll put my email in the chat. If you want to send me your address, I'll get those over to Dave and he will get the books mailed out.

Perfect. Sounds good, Hannah.

Let's do. You're lucky today. Sam, you need to go buy a lotto ticket, I'm telling you.

Yeah, lottery tickets next.

All right, Hannah, give us another one. Perfect.

Wouldn't it be hilarious, Kimberly, if he won the next one?

Casey Smith. Say that again. Casey Smith. Casey Smith. Yay. Casey Smith. So Hannah's gonna put her. You're putting your email, right, Hannah, in the chat? Yes, I have that in there. Okay. And I've turned my screen reader off because it was yammering at me, so I didn't hear that come across. But so email Hannah and she will send it today to get your book. All right, let's do another one. Perfect. Claudia Johnson.

Claudia.

Claudia Johnson. Wonderful. Awesome. Are we doing another? Yes. This will be our fourth one, right? This will be the fourth.

Yeah. I think we got two more.

Oh, this one is coming with a copy of. You'll get a copy of Tina's book My Silence Roars and a copy of A Celebration of Family Stories of Parents with Disabilities.

The next. Next two of you will get both those.

Next two of you will get both those books. So let's do it.

Wheel of Fortune's overrated. It ain't got nothing on the Wheel of Names.

I know, right? Jan Goings. All right. All right, wonderful. And the last one will be Kelly Knope.

Kelly.

Kelly. Nope. Wonderful, guys. All right, Kelly, this has been exciting. Anybody got anything else want to add? Dave, you got anything else?

Just if anybody has any opportunities for us to sell the book or distribute the book, just let me know.

Yes.

Thank you.

If you have a. An event that you. That you're having, you're going to have people at. You think they might be interested in the book, reach out to Dave. He will. He will come like. Like one of those old encyclopedia salesmen. He'll be. Show up with a bunch of books and set up a table. It'll be fun. You might not ever get rid of him, but. No, no, no, you will. Don't do that. I won't say that. You will. I promise. He'll go away. He'll go away. And of course, thank you, Tina, so much for your voice, your silence does roar and we hear you. We appreciate it so much. Thank you all so much for coming. It's been great having you here. Wonderful spending time with you. Reach out for anything you need. Demand and Disrupt is a production of the Advocado Press with generous support from the center for Accessible Living, based in Louisville, Kentucky. Our executive producers are me, Kimberly Parsley, and Dave Mathis. Our sound engineer is Michael Parsley. Thanks to Chris Ankin for the use of his song Change. Don't forget to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode and please consider leaving a review. You can find links to our email and social media in the show notes. Please reach out and let's keep the conversation going. Thanks everyone.

Just for once I think I would agree. We both know there's a difference We've had our curtain calling this time the writing song. Two damaged hearts refuse to men

judge

this situation pointless with each and every day it's not a game we need to play. We try to make things better Repair and rearrange things but each and every letter spelled out the for us to open up our minds and hearts to change. Roll the dice then what will be will be Disregard for good to set us free. Just no way of knowing if love lives anymore we turn out the light and close the door. We try to make things better Repair and relay change things but each and every letter spelled out the key for us to open up our minds and change.