Episode 84: Vacation Made Easy

You're listening to Demand and Disrupt, the podcast for information about accessibility, advocacy, and all things disability. Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast. I'm your host, Kimberly Parsley.

And I'm your co-host, Sam Moore. Kimberly, I cannot believe that it's already August. Time just zips.

It really, really does. It, it zips so fast. But Hey, the fall, lots of good things coming up for the fall, so I'm excited. How about you?

Yes, and fall is probably— well, I like spring too. All seasons have their perks, but spring and fall probably almost tie for my favorite because, you know, the, the comfort in the weather, generally speaking, and the, the coolness. And, um, of course fall comes with football, which I love. And football's one of your favorite sports too, isn't it, Kimberly?

Premier League is coming up. Football, international football. Yep, Premier League coming up. That kind of football. This past week was the begin— episode 1 of season 4 of Ted Lasso, which is soccer adjacent. So yeah, exciting.

Oh, well, now I'm partial to Ted Lasso.

I do love Ted Lasso. Yep. So yep, exciting times.

So is that one of those shows that's Like exclusively on Netflix?

It's exclusively on Apple TV+.

Apple TV+?

Apple TV+.

Okay, so if you don't have Apple TV+, you're up a creek.

Yeah, but you just wait and then you get it and you do what everybody does this, right? You just subscribe for a couple of months, binge watch, and then cancel again.

Yeah, cancel. That's— yeah, that's true. Or, you know, you could very well find certain episodes on YouTube eventually.

Maybe, maybe so. But speaking of the fine weathered seasons and the outdoors, my guest today is— I talked with Kent and Jessica Madison, and they started a nonprofit called Wheelable Wilderness.

Wheelable Wilderness.

Wheelable Wilderness. And it is all about the joy of the outdoors. Kent is a wheelchair user. And ran into some difficulties with accessing the outdoors. And so he and Jessica came up with a plan on how to fix it. And I talked to them all about that. And they are just delightful, really innovative ideas they came up with and that can help everybody.

I think everybody should. I think everybody should enjoy the great outdoors by any means necessary and regardless of the, the disability that they're faced with. So I definitely respect that mission.

100%, I agree. Do you have outdoorsy experience, Sam?

Well, I do. And, and, you know, some of it is as simple as, uh, you know, hammock lying and, and patio sitting, but others are more adventurous. I'll never forget, Kimberly, when I was in high school, uh, And I wish we'd do this again because it was so much fun. But me and, uh, well, Mom and Dad, a bunch of our cousins, we all got together and rented a, uh, houseboat down on Green River Lake. And, uh, we, we just had so much fun. It was hot, but that's what you got water for. So I was pretty much a water bug that week. But anyhow, we also had, um, a jet ski down there. And, and one of my cousins uh, Chris Roder— shout out to Chris— he was, uh, brave enough to let me drive a jet ski.

Really?

That they had down there. And, uh, so, and he was, he was sitting right behind me, but, um, but he said I should have seen the look on Mom's face when she saw me behind the wheel of that jet ski, because apparently she was a nervous wreck, even though, even though Chris was right behind me. But, um, but we did, we did that. He gave me directions, and of course, you know, there wasn't much to run into. It was right out in the middle of water. Um, the only other things out there were, you know, the occasional boats here and there, but there were plenty of space.

Just a boat.

Yeah, and there were, there was plenty of space between us and, and, and those. I didn't, uh, I didn't feel remotely threatened by any other Boats on the water. Maybe they were closer than I realized, but—

And they didn't know you couldn't see, so they weren't scared.

No, they didn't know. So it was, it was a win-win, best of both worlds for, uh, for us. It was great fun. Yes. And, uh, yeah, I can't remember how long I stayed behind the wheel, but Chris would tell me left, right, straight, and I would navigate. And, um, you know, we both made it out of there in one piece. And that was, um, that was a definite plus. But yes, when I wasn't behind the wheel of that jet ski, I was swimming and doing my thing out there in the water. It was, um, like I said, so hot you didn't want to be out of the water. And they had AC on the— in the houseboat, but, um, they didn't— they opted not to use it for the majority of the time we were there because You know, they were concerned about, they were concerned about energy consumption and that sort of thing. So I was in the water more often than not.

Where is, did you say Green River Lake?

Green River Lake. Yes. It's down, um, it's Greensburg, basically, actually either Greensburg or Columbia down there in that neck.

Oh, okay. Okay.

I only—

I think it's, um, yeah, it's Greensburg, I think is, is where if you had to address Green River Lake, I think it's Greensburg. And, um, and so that's, that's where we were, the, the Campbellsville metropolitan area, Kimberly.

Campbellsville metropolitan area. Gotcha.

That's where we were. And if that weren't enough, a few years before— I'm pretty sure I was in middle school for this— uh, my, uh, my cousins in Illinois that live on a farm, they had a, uh, a four-wheeler, and they, uh, they let me drive the four-wheeler because they figured, here again, what's he gonna run into in the middle of a wide open field? So I did that. My Uncle Lewis rode along with me. He was right behind me, and, and he claims that I darn near threw him off on one occasion.

He was riding with you?

Yeah, he— well, he passed away, God rest his soul, in 2019. But to the, to the day he died, he claimed that I almost threw him off.

And, um, you know, sounds like he wasn't holding on tight enough.

Yeah, that's true. That's, that's what I said. I said that had to be his fault. But he's the one that told me how to work the, you know, the, the gear where you, you know, you put your foot on the gas and crank it up. And so I put my foot on that gas and he wasn't ready for me to. And he said, oh, yeah. He said, well, he must not have been holding on tight enough. He said if he weren't holding on at all, you know, he would have, he would have been in the middle of that field.

Huh.

I think we all as blind people feel, we do want to know what that's like, right? To be in charge of driving something. We do.

Whatever we have to do to get that feel.

And we all apparently have people around us who are irresponsible enough to let us try. So yeah, it's good for us.

Yeah, we reap the benefits of their irresponsibility. But that reminds me, Kimberly, I'm counting down the days till these Teslas take off, you know, the self-driven vehicles. And, and, um, because I would be taking off and going somewhere. I mean, I've— I love Henderson. I love my hometown, but I love traveling too. And, and, uh, I would definitely be taking off and, and, uh, making one-night, two-night, uh, trips quite frequently.

You know, uh, when we were in Nashville a couple weekends ago, uh, Michael said he saw a Waymo car.

Waymo?

Yeah, one of the, the driverless, you know, fleet cars or whatever, um, in Nashville. So apparently they have them there.

I mean, So they, they have made it to major, at least some major cities.

Well, they were down— yeah, I mean, they were down there on, uh, like I said before, we were on, uh, Music Row. So presumably there are lots of intoxicated people who need not to drive. Yeah, so sounds like a good place to, to do a trial run of those.

Well, Nashville's as good a place as any to make a trial run, I'd say. The last few, uh, Teslas that I've heard about have been out in California and they have all wrecked. So obviously I wouldn't want any part of that.

Not—

surely not all of them. I mean, I know they're in more places. Not all of them have wrecked. I mean, they're doing trials of these driverless cars in lots of cities now, aren't they?

Well, you told me about Nashville, which was unbeknownst to me, and maybe they're testing them out in other places. But the ones in— at least a few I heard about in recent years in California have have wrecked. So yeah, I've made up my mind, you know, when the time comes and these things actually, uh, you know, become available to people on the market, somebody's gonna have to be my guinea pig. Some brave soul is gonna have to be copilot for me the first few times.

You know, I just want to get where I'm going. If I gotta go somewhere, I just want to get there as fast, as effortless. By any means necessary? Well, I'd like it to be effortless. I'd like it to be fast and convenient.

So yeah, I mean, I'm all about convenience.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not scared of them. I'm like, whatever, it doesn't, it doesn't bother me at all.

I mean, now on a side note, Kim, you know, we talked about Nashville and how you saw, you know, Michael saw Waymo down there, which is, which is really neat. And that reminded me, uh, are you, as we, as we're recording this, Kimberly, are you wearing the, uh, the hair clip that you bought in Oh no, actually, I just reached in and grabbed the all-important hair clip because I was burning up hot.

No, I'm not wearing that one. I'm wearing a different hair clip because it is also hot out here. I am in the office, Demand and Disrupt Towers.

It's hot in D&D Towers, isn't it?

It's hot in D&D Towers because you turn off the air when you start recording. And it's shocking how little time it takes for it to just get sweltering.

Oh yeah, even when it's, even when it's not overly hot outside, it just, you know.

Exactly, exactly. It's just, uh, it's, it's amazing how hot it can get and how quick it can get there.

So, but it's good to know that your Nashville hair clip is in the clip rotation.

It is in the clip rotation. Yep, it's got flowers on it. I don't know, tulips or something. It's got little, little beaded— yeah, it's little beaded flowers. It was cheap. I don't— that was the main thing. It was there and it was cheap.

So yes, it was 2 added bonuses.

Exactly, exactly. So well, gang, since they heard so much of us last time, I don't think we need to, to trouble them.

You don't think they want another hour of us?

You know, I think they might not. I think they might have had enough. So I—

way to crush my ego.

I'm— oh, I'm so sorry. A delicate ego that it is. I'm so I'm so sorry, but I think with that we will let the fine folks hear my interview with Kent and Jessica Madison from Wheelable Winters.

Maybe before we do that, Kimberly, we should remind them that we are one email away if they want to contact us.

That's right, that's right. Tell all the fine people how they should get in touch with us.

Yes, and we're readily available and eager to read what you have to say. It's demandanddisrupt, all one word, lowercase and all that jazz, [email protected].

That is correct. And we want to hear from you. And also, uh, in those show notes, there's the Facebook page link. So, uh, join the discussion there because we'd love to hear from you.

Yeah, like and follow that page.

So that's right, an instant That's right. We're on YouTube too.

And YouTube.

I don't know how you find. Yeah, just search us up. I think you'll find us that way. I don't know. There's no video. We'll have to get to that sometime. But this ain't that day.

But the audio is on YouTube, and I've actually yeah, you can just go. I've actually done it before.

You can.

You do?

Uh huh. Yes, you can just type demand and disrupt into the search engine, and that'll get you to the YouTube channel, and you can stroll. You know, scroll through the videos and, and which is just audio, of course.

It's just, it's just like the audio, like the sound waves. Yeah.

Listen to what we and our guests have to say.

There you go. If that's more convenient, listen to us that way. We would love that. Hit that subscribe button, as the kids say.

Oh yeah.

And now we will listen to my interview with Kent and Jessica Madison from Wheelable Wilderness. I am joined today by Kent and Jessica Madison, and they are the founders of Wheelable Wilderness. And this is an, an outside hiking and outdoorsy sort of thing, so y'all know that I know zero about it because I don't like to leave my house. So Kent, you are going to tell me all about Willable Wilderness. Tell me what it is.

All right. So, uh, my wife and I, we founded this organization after, uh, or the idea of it came after, uh, a bad camping experience. Um, because I've always loved the outdoors. And, um, as you know, Kimberly, I haven't always been, uh, disabled. I was hit by a drunk driver when I was 17, and it left me a quadriplegic. Well, just because I was in the wheelchair did not take my passion away for the outdoors. And we went camping on my birthday, and we were up in the Blue Ridge Mountains somewhere. And most campgrounds have 1 to 2 handicap accessible campsites. Well, we booked The only one that this one had. Well, there was a glitch in their system and it got double booked somehow. Well, according to the timestamp, the other family was the ones who had the rights to the campsite. So they ended up kicking us out of the campsite and putting us into a— into one that I couldn't even access. I ended up having to sleep in my car that night. But the family that actually moved in had no disabilities. And apparently they only got it because it had a concrete pad so their kids could play on with their Tonka trucks or wherever the toys were. But so on my way home, I was clearly and obviously mad and upset. So I just decided to, instead of wanting a change, I just decided to be the change. So we founded or that's where the idea of Wheelable Wilderness came about. And what we're about is breaking down the barriers that individuals with disabilities have when facing the outdoors. We offer an all-terrain track wheelchair. It's called an Action Track wheelchair, otherwise known as a track chair. It is essentially a wheelchair with tank tracks And it goes through mud, sand, snow. You can go through about 10 inches of water, and we offer it out completely free.

We also have a variety of other adaptive equipment that we can lend out. We are working on getting like adaptive kayak equipment, adaptive fishing, and then eventually we want to do a universally designed accessible campground that has day use facilities for like picnics and meeting spaces and a catch-and-release fishing pond, um, sensory gardens, playgrounds.

Like, we, we try— I, I've, I've tried to make it to where this is basically an accessibility sanctuary, to say the least.

That sounds, that sounds awesome. Um, tell me, what is an all-terrain Wheelchair. Is that what you called it?

Yes.

Yes. Tell me what, what that is.

So there are different companies that make them. A couple that I'm familiar with are like Eco Rover and Action Track Wheelchair. So essentially it is a wheelchair with tank tracks. They're otherwise known as track chairs. But you can go through mud, sand, snow, You can go through a little bit of water, about 10 inches of water. And it's like I said, it's essentially just a wheelchair with tank tracks. And you can take any kind of hiking trail, like anywhere that a normal wheelchair will not go, this will go and exceed that above and beyond. Like there are practically no limits. in, in this chair.

Hmm.

Well, that sounds amazing. I assume that was very expensive.

Uh, yeah, usually, uh, the base price for one is about $19,000. Um, and that's for just your standard model with no accessories, no tricks or gimmicks or anything like that. Um, nothing fancy. But, um, that's one of the reasons why we offer it out completely free is because the medical industry charges so much for these chairs. And an individual that's drawing Social Security or that is on disability can't afford to, like, or they can't justify dropping that much money on—

If they have that much money.

Yeah.

Even if they have that much money.

Exactly. Yeah. And—

For most people, Purchasing one of these for hobby kind of use is not, is not feasible. Yeah, it's not doable.

I mean, it's essentially, I mean, that's, it's a down payment on a house. It's a brand new car. Like, and I can't see someone just unless you're like really, really well off. I mean, I can't see someone justifying dropping that much money down on something that you might use 3 to 4 times a year.

A lot of, a lot of us don't have that, those kind of funds to begin with.

So, right. And so you lend this out for free, did you say?

Yes. Yeah. For 2 weeks at a time. And you can take it anywhere in the US. Um, and your rental date doesn't start until you get to your location. That way we're not robbing you of your vacation time. You're not stressing about having to get it back. Or planning, like it gives you room for error in case something happens. Like I said, I'm trying to accommodate every aspect of having a disability. So I want people to be able to enjoy their time with the chair. And then not only enjoy their time with the chair, accommodate those errors that might come up on your vacation, like a blown tire or, you know, Whatever it might be.

So tell me, if someone is interested in— I guess it's not renting since it's for free— borrowing that chair, what might they do? How do they get in touch with you?

So we have a website which is wheelablewilderness.com, and they can go on that website and there is a dropdown menu under inventory That shows the equipment that they can reserve, and then they just fill out a reservation form with the dates that they would need that equipment and, and some details like that. And then we contact them by phone once we receive that form and kind of finalize all the details. They can also just call us. Our phone number and contact information is listed on that website as well. And we try to keep that process pretty simple. So it's a—

Yeah, it's just pretty seamless. Like easygoing. It's not very complicated. Everything's laid out, fully described. I've got my equipment terms and agreements on the website as well. So you can read through that before you even decide if you want to borrow the chair.

And a quick thing about the website here. Kent has asked me no fewer than 3 times to look over it and check it for accessibility for someone who is visually impaired. So if there is a problem, it's not Kent and Jessica's fault. It's mine because I haven't done it yet. But maybe by the time this comes out, I will have the time to do that. But I swear he has taken— both of you have taken all kinds of disabilities into account. And yes, any errors are my own.

Yes, ma'am.

So one of the things I find interesting is you could have turned this business into a side hustle, you know, but instead you decided to make it and you decided to go through the arduous process of becoming an actual nonprofit. Can you tell me what went into making that decision?

Um, yeah, actually, like, um, and the, you're not getting the, the, the nonprofit world is a whole other beast in itself. I'm still learning every day on, like, I make mistakes every day and I'm just learning as I go. But like, the idea is like, I've never really been about the money. I'm just, I'm just here to help. I mean, I don't really care about making mounds of money or charging people stuff that they can't afford in the first place. I mean, The world should be about helping or bringing everybody up, not like asking for stuff, like asking for something in return. Like, I don't know where the world went wrong with like, when you extend your hand, you're not extending your hand to get something. You're extending your hand to lift someone up. You're extending your hand to help another individual. And that's just, it's what I've always been about. That's what it's like. something I've cared deeply for. And like, I, I just love the feeling I get from making another individual happy or eliminating a barrier from someone. So that's why I decided to do the nonprofit route, because it's not about the money. My, my mission has never been about the money. It's been about reaching those who need the help. It's about Just offering that handout and them knowing there's nothing expected in return. Like, we don't ask for donations. Well, the tractor, like, is— well, completely free.

I'm gonna add to what you're saying. Um, the nonprofit formation made sense because this whole thing is mission-driven. Like he said, it's not about money, it's about a mission. Any money, I mean, obviously we have to have money to purchase the equipment to do programming because we also offer nature-based inclusive workshops and activities and things in the community. When we, when we do the campground, obviously there's going to be a lot of expenses involved in that. So, I mean, we do need money. But we wanted that whatever, whatever money we receive from this to go back into it to be able to help more people. It's, it's all about the mission. So that's why we chose to make it a nonprofit. Okay.

Tell me about some of those workshops you were just talking about. Nature-driven. Yeah, I don't know. You say nature, my mind shuts down. I'm sorry. So tell me what you mean by that.

So one of the things that we had talked about early on that I have seen a lot in working with individuals and families is that there sometimes is a lack of inclusive or accessible activities that are also budget-friendly. You know, there are a lot of attractions in this area, a lot of activities, but people, especially people who are on disability, don't necessarily have $40, $50, $100 to spend on a ticket for something. And they still want things to do and interesting things, fun things to do. So we try to offer quarterly workshops, classes, activities that are within like a $5 or $10 range. And those are usually nature-inspired. So like, for example, we did a terrarium workshop in April. And participants came, and we had supplies to build their own terrarium, and we, we showed them how to do that. So like gardening, nature-inspired art projects, social gatherings, things like that. We try to do that on a quarterly basis, and, and like I said, keep the cost under $10 per person. So people can afford to participate and have a good time. Uh-huh.

Okay. And, you know, honestly, listening to you all talk, I think perhaps one of my— I wouldn't say aversions, but maybe aversions to nature is that it, it is such a challenge for people with disabilities. It is. It doesn't seem like, oh, wow, what a fun day out. It seems like Like, Kent, like you were saying, uh, or, and you, Jesse, also, all the homework that went into finding an accessible campground and then knowing that even, even though you did the homework, like you put in the study time, it could still not work out.

Yeah. No matter how amount of preparation you do, there, there's always something that can come up. There's always some kind of random fluke that will get in your way or kind of put a damper on your vacation or ruin the whole day.

Yeah.

Or ruin the whole thing in general. But I mean, I've tried to not let that get to me as much as most people would say probably would get to someone because, as my wife stated, I'm pretty resilient. Like, I find a way to make things happen. But then again, at the same time, like, I realize there's other people that doesn't have like that sort of mindset toward things. So that's one of the reasons why we have done the extensive research. We've put in the man and woman hours into this. Like, we're trying to think of every little aspect that could go wrong and every aspect that we have faced as an interabled couple, uh, and apply that to what we are trying to build.

Yeah, we, we do want to make it easier for people, um, to access nature but also to enjoy nature, uh, so that it's not so Like, oh gosh, you know, I'm trying to get out here on the— it's not, it's not fun when it, when it's hard. It's not fun when it's hard, you know?

No. So if somebody gets on your website and they schedule the, the track chair, do you deliver it to them? Do they come to you? How does that work?

Whichever, whatever fits their needs. Oftentimes we deliver it. We'll deliver it within a 200-mile radius of Bowling Green.

If that means straight to your doorstep, then that's what we do.

We can also bring it, you know, like if you were at a campground, a resort, a hotel, wherever, we can deliver it there. You can come and pick it up from us. It just depends on what your needs are and how you're going to use it.

Now, does a track chair, does that work on a beach?

Yeah, absolutely.

Really?

Yep.

Really?

Yeah, I've taken it on the beach before and I've done donuts. I've dug my own little hole with it. It's been, it's been a lot of fun.

And it's a game changer for a caregiver as well because it is very hard to push a, a person In a wheelchair across sand. Um, you know, usually a lot of beaches have like the PVC pipe wheelchairs with the big balloon tires, and it's very hard to push those. A beach trip for us was like a— like 5, 10 days at the gym for me. It was— oh wow. Yeah, it was hard work.

Before we had the chair, We actually had a kiddie pool, like a little kid's pool that we put me on, and my wife and children would drag me onto the beach with it.

I mean, we have tried because I love the beach, and I, like I said, I love outdoorsy things. So we, we have literally tried. I have piggybacked him across areas. Uh, we have dragged him in a pool float. We— I have tried to push the balloon tire wheelchairs. It's really hard work. But this all-terrain wheelchair is a total game changer because I don't have to push him at all. Um, it's a powered wheelchair and he just goes right along and we get to walk on the beach like a normal couple. Yep.

And I ended up having— now instead of her doing all the work and you know, pushing me and worrying about all that. Now I get to carry the bags to the beach because I'm able to. Yeah, like it takes a load. And for those of you who don't know my wife, she's very vertically challenged. She is. She is a tiny little girl, but she's got a heart like a lion. Like she, she is determined to make it happen.

That's awesome. You know, we don't often think about Caregivers.

Yeah, the caregiver aspect.

Yeah, yeah. Vacation is a lot harder. It does make things hard because, well, of all the reasons we talked about, and also it's just an unfamiliar— everything is, is kind of a crapshoot, doesn't it? Just everything.

Oh yeah.

So that's wonderful that taking at least one of those concerns out. So tell me where you are right now with The accessible campground?

Well, we're still raising the funds for it.

Right now, right now it is a dream with a plan.

Gotcha.

Yeah, yeah, it's got a—

that's how the best things start, right?

Exactly. I mean, I've got a blueprint. I've got everything down to the architectural design of every aspect, every inch of the campground. I've even got how much a square foot it's going to cost to do this. Like, I've, I've done my research. I've, uh, like I said, I just put— it's been a lot of man-hours put into this, and, uh, we're just trying to find a way to get some grants.

And—

We're always looking for like-minded people, um, who would want to sponsor something like this. Um, you know, business owners that, that want to be part of it. Even if people can't donate money, um, if they could donate time, you know, man-hours, like you said, um, we have a lot of different volunteer opportunities from working with the website to delivering track chairs when they get reserved. There's a lot of different opportunities to be involved, and we definitely need help because we definitely have big plans, big dreams, big goals, but we need people to help us do it.

Yeah.

And like I was saying, I've put so much time and thought into this. I've even broke it down that if every American in the United States donated just $5, we could have this campground in every state of the US. Like, I mean, that would be— just think about that. Like, just $5, less than a McDonald's meal, you can make the nation accessible.

Mm-hmm.

That no one in the United States would be no further than 4 to 5 hours away from an accessible campground and/or a track share.

That would be great. And you have, you, you have a board, right, on your, for your nonprofit that, that helps kind of oversee things. Is that right?

Yes, ma'am.

So you're getting input from the community? Yes.

Yes.

And how many members are on that board?

Right now we have 5.

Okay. And are you always looking for people who are interested in serving on that board, or—

Oh, yeah.

Do people cycle in and off? How does that work?

Yeah, I mean, it's—

Definitely looking for people who are interested.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it's another aspect of why we created this as a nonprofit is because we wanted it to be Controlled, operated, um, by the community. Not, not like a corporate—

Again, not about the money. It's more about input from normal individuals, everyday individuals.

So tell me, if someone hears this and they, they want to get involved, they want to, they want to donate actual money, I mean, time and expertise, like you said, always appreciated. What if someone wants to donate money? What do they do?

Whether you want to donate your time or your money, there is a volunteer form on our website as well. But if you wanted to donate to the cause, if you wanted to donate us money, we have a donation tracker on our website to each individual part of the campground. So if you wanted to donate your money to a specific part of the campground, it's broken down. Everything is on my website under our donation tracker. You can select which cause you want to donate, or you can— there's options on there to sponsor a chair or sponsor a specific part of the campground.

Give me an example. What might that be, a part of the campground?

Okay, so we have a, uh, donation platform through GiveButter, um, and on there, there's like a part that says Alpha Track Wheelchair, which is our track share lending program. You can donate money to us in order for us to be able to purchase another track share to add to our fleet.

Mm-hmm.

So, okay. Uh, each campground I plan on having 5 track chairs. So obviously that's, you know, it's not cheap. So if you wanted to help us out with that, there's a, there's a donation platform for that. There's another donation platform for our accessible cabins that we plan on having on our campground. Um, if you wanted to donate specifically toward that, you could do that.

This sounds so nice. Kent, it almost makes me want to go camping.

Almost.

So let me ask you this. If I go camping, can you promise that, number one, I won't get bit by a mosquito? Or number two, that if I stick my hand in the dirt, there will not be a bug there?

Oh, well, I mean, I can't promise you that, but you're more than welcome to give it a try. I'll buy you some bug zappers.

Give me some Deep Woods Off or something.

Yeah.

Yeah, there you go.

Well, Kent, Jessica, it has been wonderful talking with you. I appreciate it so much. Uh, gang, this sounds fascinating. You know, we, uh, as a community, we support each other. Get out there, use the tools that people are giving us, you know. Sounds great.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for having us on here. It means the world.

Demand and Disrupt is a production of the Advocato Press with generous support from the Center for Accessible Living, based in Louisville, Kentucky. Our executive producers are me, Kimberly Parsley, and Dave Mathis. Our sound engineer is Michael Parsley. Thanks to Chris Ankin for the use of his song Change. Don't forget to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode, and please consider leaving a review. You can find links to our email and social media in the show notes. Please reach out and let's keep the conversation going. Thanks, everyone.

You say you've seen a change in me. Just for once, I think I would agree.

Change?

We both know there's a difference. We've had our curtain call, and this time we're riding Dancing on the wall. Smash this wall of words we can't defend. 2 damaged hearts refuse to mend. To judge this situation's pointless with each and every day. It's not a game we need to play.

Change.

We tried to make things better, repair and rearrange things, but each and every letter spelt out the need for us to open up our minds and hearts to change. Charming. Charming. Roll the dice, then what will be will be. Disregard for good to set us free. Free. There's just no way of knowing if love lives anymore. Turn out the light and close the door. We tried to make things better, repair And rearrange things, mudds each and every letter, spells out the need for us to open up our minds and hearts to change.

Change!

Change!

Change!

Change!

Change!