Lisa talks with Kevin Kline with Good Maps, an inclusive navigation system that helps people with disabilities move around those tricky indoor spaces safely and with confidence. Speaking of travel, the United States Department of Transportation is seeking input from people with disabilities about a proposed new rule that could be a game changer for people traveling with wheelchairs and other mobility devices. And Lisa tells us about her experience of the April 8 total solar eclipse.

Read the proposed Department of Transportation rule change

• Online: Federal eRulemaking Portal

• Mail: Docket Management Facility U.S. Department of Transportation 1200 New Jersey Ave. SE, West Building Ground Floor, Room W12–140 Washington, DC 20590–0001.

• Fax: (202) 493–2251.

Visit Good Maps

Thanks to Chris Ankin for use of his song, “Change.”

The book "A Celebration of Family: Stories of Parents with Disabilities." is available from Amazon here.

Send comments and questions to [email protected]

Demand and Disrupt is sponsored by the Advocado Press and the Center For Accessible Living.

Transcript

Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, the Disability Podcast.

Here we will learn to advocate for ourselves and each other.

This podcast is supported with funds from the Advocato Press based in Louisville, Kentucky.

Welcome to Demand and Disrupt.

I'm your host, Kimberly Parsley.

And I'm Lisa McKinley.

Today we are speaking with Kevin Klein.

He is a Community Engagement Representative with Good Maps.

Good Maps is an inclusive indoor navigation system that you use with an app on the phone.

And Kevin travels across the United States sharing the product with others and kind of showing them how to use it.

It was an excellent interview.

I enjoyed speaking with him so much.

He lost his vision quite suddenly.

And he's going to tell us about that and how transitioning from a totally sighted man to a blind man and learning the mobility, how it kind of all led him up to this career with Good Maps.

And we're going to learn how Good Maps can help people with all different types of disabilities navigate independently in indoor spaces like airports, stadium halls, schools, universities, really anywhere that a company decides to set up the infrastructure for Good Maps.

So that's going to be really neat.

That is amazing.

And did you say he's based here in Kentucky?

Yes.

Well, actually, the company is based here in Kentucky and he was living in Kentucky for a while, but he's recently moved to Nashville and he'll tell us about that in the interview too.

Awesome.

I can't wait.

I can't wait.

Good Maps makes a lot of things more possible for people, a lot of navigation help with that.

Yes.

And I told him I'm usually turning down concert invites because I don't want to spend the money, but Good Maps is set up in Yum Center, in the Yum Stadium in Louisville.

I'm like, now I'm not going to turn down the next offer because I want to go check out Good Maps.

I went there and had such fun and I didn't think I was a concert person because, you know, noise and stuff.

But I went to a concert there in November and it was, I mean, it was great.

And they are very, the Yum Center is so good with people with disabilities.

I mean, they really work great.

There was a whole section for us and it wasn't like far away.

Well, I mean, it was, but that was because I didn't pay for an expensive ticket, you know, but yeah, it was, I mean, it was great.

There were people there.

Some people came up.

They were like, look, when I bought the ticket, I was fine, but now I've broken my leg.

So I need, you know, a different seat.

And they had no problem with that.

They were really great, really great.

And on the way from that, that accessibility desk to the, um, place where, uh, accessible seating, I think we passed maybe 10 bourbon vendors.

So, Oh, wow.

There was that.

Who did you, who did you go see?

I saw pink.

Pink.

Oh, I hear she does a really good concert.

She flew.

She flew.

I was going to say, I guess you didn't get, I mean, I, you still got to experience that in your own way.

I did.

And, uh, you know, yeah, it was fun.

I went with a friend of mine and our daughters are, uh, best friends.

So it was, uh, four girls and if there was, it was really great.

It really was nice.

I bet they really loved that.

Let me tell you what we did recently and people will think it's completely crazy.

At least for me, um, as you know, we had a partial solar eclipse here in Bowling Green.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

April 8th.

Right.

Uh huh.

Yes.

And for everyone who has seen both a partial solar eclipse and a total solar eclipse, they will tell you a partial eclipse does not at all compare to a full total solar eclipse.

So we put the boys in the car and we took them down to Indiana to a little town called Mount Vernon, Indiana, where there was full totality for almost four minutes.

Oh, wow.

I'm telling you, yeah, it was the neatest experience, even though I couldn't see it.

It was just, well, I'll take that back.

The actual moment of totality was pretty cool, but we were down on the river and there was a band.

They hired a band to play and they had bouncy houses and snow cones and all this stuff, but they hired a heavy metal band and it was terrible.

I'm like, why, this is a family friendly event.

Why?

Why?

Why heavy metal?

It was, oh, so I was, I was fuming inside because I'm like, I hope they stop for the actual eclipse.

Did they?

Yes.

Oh good.

Oh good.

A few minutes before totality, I hear the leader of the band say, and now we're going to take a break and look towards the skies and I was like, yes, thank you.

I was so, I was so happy they stopped.

So if you couldn't see it, tell me what you experienced with it.

Okay.

So we got there about an hour before totality.

And so basically an hour before and an hour after is, is when you're experiencing the sun moving or the moon rather moving in across the sun and then the moon, then there's the moment of totality and then the moon moves away.

So as the moon is moving in, the skies get darker and darker.

Of course, I could not experience that, but what I did notice was the temperature.

It started to drop and the winds started to pick up.

And wow, I don't know if you've ever noticed this and, and I've never heard anyone else talk about it, but as a blind person and really paying attention to the sounds outside, I can tell when the birds, I can tell the time of day by the sound of the birds, they have a morning song, they have an afternoon song and they have an evening way of singing and they're all three different.

And so as the moon was coming in that hour, as it was slowly coming in to cross over the sun, I heard the birds go from afternoon song to their evening song because the skies were mimicking or not mimic the skies were doing basically what they do as it's turning dusk.

So the birds started to calm down a little and their song was a little softer.

And then when it reached totality, there was more of a chill in the air.

The birds completely stopped.

There were frogs.

The frogs started going because we were on the river and I'm so cool.

That is cool and then as the, as the moon started moving away, the birds started singing again, but it sounded like 5 a.m. in the morning, the way they were singing and you know, within 10 or 15 minutes they were back to normal and that's, to me, it was really cool noticing all of us, all of that, that it's like time lapse audio.

Yes, it was time lapse audio and I also enjoy just listening to my husband and my two boys, their reactions and them describing it to me.

It was, it was just, it was super neat.

Yeah, that is true.

That is true.

That does sound like fun.

That way more fun than I had.

We walked out in the back door of my office and my coworker was like, yeah, getting kind of dark and that was about it.

So you, that sounds like such a cool experience, but yeah, I go to the zoo with my kids and of course I can't touch any of the things and you know, rarely do you get to, I mean, you can hear the birds, but you know, most of the animals aren't making a noise, but it's their reactions.

You know, it's them telling me about stuff and you know, that kind of thing is fun.

So I guess, oh yeah, it's just listening and hearing their reactions.

Like at Christmas, I love hearing them open the presents and saying what they got when they were little, but yeah, it is fun to do stuff.

Even stuff.

I mean, I think disabled people do more stuff than people think that we enjoy more things than I think they think we can, you know, yes, absolutely.

And I hear you have some news from the Department of Transportation.

I do.

I'm going to, there's a new rule proposed about airlines and how they handle wheelchairs and mobility devices and I want to share that with our listeners.

The U.S. Department of Transportation is seeking public comments on a new proposed rule designed to ensure airline passengers who use wheelchairs can travel safely and with dignity.

An estimated 5.5 million Americans use wheelchairs and many encounter barriers when it comes to air travel.

In 2023, over 11,000 wheelchairs and scooters were mishandled by carriers required to report data to the Department of Transportation.

The proposed rule would set new standards for prompt, safe, and dignified assistance, require enhanced training for airline employees and contractors who physically assist passengers with disabilities, and handle passengers' wheelchairs and specific action that airlines must take to protect passengers when a wheelchair is damaged during transport.

Notably, the proposed rule would require airlines to provide passengers with two options to repair or replace their wheelchairs if mishandled by the airline.

The two options are, the carrier handles the repair and replacement of the wheelchair with one that has equivalent or greater function and safety within reasonable time frame and pays the associated cost, or the passenger arranges the repair or replacement of a wheelchair with one that has equivalent or greater function and safety through their preferred vendor and airline pays the associated cost.

In addition, the proposed rule will make it easier for the Department of Transportation to hold airlines accountable when they damage or delay the return of a wheelchair to its owner by making it an automatic violation of the Air Carrier Access Act to mishandle wheelchairs.

As part of the notice of proposed rulemaking, the Department of Transportation is also requiring input on two topics not currently included in the proposal, lavatory size on twin aisle aircrafts and reimbursement of fair differences between flights someone could have taken if their wheelchair fit in the aircraft and the more expensive flight they had to take instead.

Summits can be submitted online, by mail, or fax, or hand delivered through Monday, May 13th, 2024.

And now here is the amazing, fabulous Kevin Klein.

Thank you for joining us today.

Today I am speaking with Kevin Klein, Community Engagement Representative with Good Maps.

Good Maps is a company providing indoor navigation to the blind and visually impaired.

It is an amazing company and not only does Kevin get to represent this company and travel around the US, he also has an amazing story of triumph.

I know a lot of people would have not been as tenacious as Kevin under certain, under similar circumstances, but Kevin has overcome and he is here to tell us more about that story and a little more about Good Maps.

Thank you, Kevin.

Thanks for joining us today.

Thanks for having me and thanks for the great introduction.

Hopefully I can set a little light on my past life, if you will, and then what I'm doing now.

Yes, when I first heard your story and heard about the things you were doing, I was like, wow, I've got to talk to him more in depth sometimes.

So I'm so glad you joined us on the program today.

So if you would, start by telling us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah.

So, like you said, I'm Kevin Klein and I work with Good Maps and the Community Engagement role, which we do accessible indoor navigation for anyone now and I'll get more into that later.

But I now live in Nashville, Tennessee, lived in Bowling Green, Kentucky for a few years and was raised in Western Kentucky.

So kind of stayed in this area for most of my life and I'm 28 and I lost my vision about five and a half years ago now, I guess.

Wow.

If you don't mind, share a little about that with us.

Yeah.

So up until, you know, 23 years old, I had 20, 20 vision, lived a relatively normal life, you know, played sports and went to college and, you know, had multiple different jobs and careers, but on what I was going to do for the rest of my life, I was, when I was in Bowling Green, I was working at UPS and the goal was to become a driver shortly after working there and, you know, things like that, everything was somewhat figured out.

And then the, I guess it would be August of 2018, I was watching a game in a restaurant there in town and realized the score was looking a little blurry, but didn't think much of it.

I was like, well, I haven't been to the optometrist in about 10 years.

So I guess it might be time to go get glasses or something like that.

So a little time goes by and I, you know, was driving there in town and I went off the road just slightly, didn't crash or anything like that, but that wasn't normal for me.

And so I made an appointment with an optometrist there in Bowling Green and within about an hour they said, you need to go to Nashville, we can't help you here.

And you know, immediately I'm like, well, that's very odd, I've never had any type of eye issues, no major health scares or anything like that.

So I went down to Nashville, actually went to the wrong, they sent me to the wrong doctor.

It was, they sent me to a retina specialist, which I don't have a retina problem.

I have a optic nerve issue, it's Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy.

And so basically they were running tests at this other doctor and they, you know, were, kind of, I found out a couple months later as I was losing my vision over the next six months that they were kind of waiting to see if I could be a guinea pig for them, you know, run tests, things like that.

Well, once I figured out that I did some research and got recommended to go to Vanderbilt.

And about, you know, by the fifth month out of six months of losing my vision, I got into a clinical trial in maybe December of 2018, maybe January, but of 2019.

But it, and it helped me slightly, but everything with LHLN is still in trials.

There's no, you know, cure, if they catch it quickly, then they can kind of reverse it somewhat with some of the trials.

But you know, I wasn't that lucky because I was waiting around for multiple months.

But by January, 2019 into February, I was probably at my worst vision wise.

And then, you know, the shots helped me regain slight contrast, but not much.

I could still see light, but other than that, nothing.

I like to tell people I'm pretty, pretty blind, you know, pretty much blind.

So you get into the low vision and the blindness and people will ask what's your level of sight and all this.

And I didn't really get that because I went from 2020 to, you know, blind in the course of six months.

So they're always asking me, QD and things like that.

And I'm like, I got no idea.

I don't see much.

How about that?

So, you know, from 2019, it was kind of a lot of, you know, hoping, well, it's going to come back at some point, but, you know, it never did.

And the first year or two, it was pretty rough to go through that at my age and while everybody else's lives continue the same, you know, continue their regular course, if you will.

I can only imagine.

So this just came on very suddenly with no warning.

I take it there was no one else in your family that you knew of with this disorder?

No.

And that's funny thing is I'm adopted, actually, so didn't even know which we ended up my family reached out to my birth mother and come to find out she had no idea she was a carrier.

The diseases normally passed on from a mother to a son, or I'm pretty sure I have two birth brothers and neither one of them were affected.

And so I just got lucky, you know, or however you want to put it, unlucky.

But I was, I guess, chosen to get this.

But yeah, there was no signs of it ever going to happen and had no no clue it would ever happen to me.

So it was very surprising.

I can only imagine and at such a young age, but you still had so much life and you still have so much life ahead of you.

And do you think that in some ways helped propel you forward to continue, you know, striving to understand and to adjust to life as a blind person?

Yeah, it definitely did.

But it took time to get to that point.

Probably, like I said, about a year and a half, I was in a pretty dark mental state and, you know, didn't really, I didn't even know how to learn to be blind, didn't have a cane and nothing like that.

I was just holding on to people walking around town if I ever left the apartment and, you know, didn't really, wasn't taking care of myself and all that good stuff that comes with the darkness.

And so I don't know what it necessarily was.

But within that year and a half to two years kind of hit a point where I was like, I need to change things.

I've still got a lot of like, this isn't going to get better.

The hopes and prayers are nice, but it doesn't mean that it's going to change.

And so I kind of hit a middle point where I had to change some stuff and learn to be blind and then learn what you can do as a blind individual, which I'm still learning that as I go on.

But yeah, it took it took that and then like you said, the age, you know, being at this point probably 24, maybe 25 and knowing, you know, you still have a whole life ahead of you.

I was at 24 years old, you most people hope to have a whole another, you know, 50 to something years left to live their life and have children and get married, all that good stuff.

So kind of took a toll on me at the beginning, but you know, you got to not everybody hits that mental point of changing because it just takes time and everybody's different.

I just I got lucky that I did it within a couple of years instead of waiting any longer.

Right.

It's such an adjustment period for everyone.

And there are definitely dark days and when I talk to a newly visually impaired person, it's kind of challenging because, you know, I tell them you have to go through this.

It's kind of a depression and there's no way to rush it and you don't want to rush it.

And sadly, sometimes people get stuck there, so I'm so glad that you didn't get stuck there and you know, you decided, OK, there's there's life to live.

I got to get out there and figure out how to live life blind.

So can you tell us a little what that was like really making that adjustment?

Yeah, so fortunately, when I decided to, you know, really go full force into learning how to be blind and live that type of life, Covid hit.

So that was fun.

You know, there's all this information and assistance and trainings that I didn't know existed, but I was excited to try and learn.

And then everything shut down and they wanted to, you know, trying to learn a computer over the phone with seven other people through Zoom was not ideal for me.

You know, learning Braille over the phone was not working for me, things like that.

But I was able to learn the phone pretty well by myself and with a little bit of assistance from instructors.

But that's kind of what helped that and mixed with the mobility skills that I've learned to still learning, but I've gotten pretty well with, you know, walking anywhere that I feel necessary, you know, traveling, things like that.

But if you're able to use that phone to your complete ability, that's a game changer.

You know, I'm currently still learning the MacBook now that every week I get a little bit of training.

But it's, you know, it took time, but it was one of those things that I joke with people saying in high school, I didn't do great at Spanish because I didn't want to learn Spanish.

But you know, if you want to learn something, it's a lot easier when you have that interest and you know, your life depends on it, if you will.

Yes, and the mobility thing.

Learning how to use the cane and the apps on the phone for navigation, that's kind of what got you into this position at Good Maps, isn't it?

Yeah, somewhat.

So, you know, I couldn't even walk a straight line when I first saw some vision, I still run the walls, that's just because I don't pay attention.

But you know, the cane is a life changer.

You know, as I was getting mobility instruction, I was learning of some applications and, you know, once you hear about it, you want to kind of go try it out.

And I guess I'll back up a little bit to see how I get, you know, to where I am now.

But I was, you know, in some of the organizations, which are very helpful, no matter where you are, you're going to be able to find an ACB or an FB organization in your city or region.

They're all throughout all 50 states.

So they're great to, you know, get ahold of because they can tell you at least where the resources are, show you people that are successful as a blind individual, which was a big thing for me was finding people that are living life, you know, the way I kind of want to.

And so my girlfriend at the time, my wife now, she had moved down to Nashville.

And you know, I was, I had some instruction under my belt and some training, but I was like, man, if I could get in a big city where there's even more opportunities.

So I moved down here to Nashville and there I joined the ACB and FB and just tried to meet as many people as possible and also getting technology training and mobility training here too in the big city environment is a big difference too.

So I did all of that and I come to find out there's, you know, I'd never been to, at this point I hadn't been to an FB meeting or anything like that in town, but I saw that there was a career fair in New Orleans at the FB convention and it happened to be over my birthday.

So I called up a buddy and I said, Hey, let's go to New Orleans.

And I'd never been, I wouldn't suggest going in July, pretty hot, pretty humid, but it was a good time.

But what was the best part was I met people from Nashville that were, you know, very successful in their own rights.

And also I went to the career fair where I met my boss, Evelyn at Good Maps.

And you know, I met a lot of people there and I actually, we ended up going to, we had been at the same university near the same time, which was just a coincidence and you know, we had mutual friends, things like that, but had good conversation and that was about it.

And that was in 2022.

So I didn't hear anything from anyone at the career fair then, this was in July.

So I was working with the state here in book rehab and I ended up getting a job in a warehouse in September.

And you know, I don't know if this is coincidence, but it seems like, you know, there's always something that happens mad in your life, but good comes out of it.

And you know, right around that same time, my mother had passed in September and then I started a new job like a couple of weeks later.

So, you know, and same with the blindness, like, you know, there's always, it's not a good thing.

It's not fun.

It's not something you look forward to, but good can come out of it.

So that, you know, that happened and I was like, well, warehouse work isn't necessarily what I want to do, but I want to make my own money again, like having some type of independence and contributing to the household is kind of my internal goal.

So I did that and it was going okay and, you know, working in a semi-trailer for eight months, give or take, and then come June of 2023, I got reached out to by a couple of people saying, hey, this lady's looking for you, like trying to find who you are.

She works for Good Maps and she remembered you from the career fair.

So luckily after a few interviews and meeting up, ended up being able to quit that warehouse job and take on the community engagement role at Good Maps and it's been a life changer in multiple ways, but just being able to communicate and network with a lot of people with the same interests as I do, you know, visual loss, blindness, I've even been in contact with, you know, deaf organizations, things like that, just a whole lot of other people that I never thought I'd meet and travel and all that good stuff.

So it came full circle and, you know, I kind of preach about every bad thing has something good on the other side.

So this is definitely, I wouldn't have been in this position, I joke with everyone at Good Maps saying, well, you know, it's because I'm blind and I can talk to people, right?

That's why you hire me, but it might not be a hundred percent true, but it probably did have some effect and, you know, if I wasn't blind, maybe I wouldn't have this job.

So, you know, it comes full circle.

Well, you saw that there was the career fair, you know, it's kind of far from Nashville.

You took that chance.

I think that's important to, you know, point out to listeners, we have to take the chance, you know, sitting around isn't going to get us very far, but you took that chance.

You went out, you found the career fair.

And the fact that they reached out to you, I think that just goes to show, speaks so much about your character and confidence at that event.

You must have just, you were someone they wanted on the payroll, so I think that's so great.

Yeah, I was surprised too.

It was, it was a great, great opportunity to be able to, you know, have someone reach out to me instead of, you know, like, we know, we all know how it is trying to find a job when you don't have one or trying to find something new, just, you know, constantly reaching out to everybody else, well, it's, you know, it's a game changer when they reach out to you for the first time.

Absolutely.

And if you would kind of tell us about Good Maps and what is it that, what kind of services do they provide?

Yeah, so Good Maps, it's been evolving, but it's, you know, to where it is right now, it is now an inclusive and accessible for all application when it comes to indoor navigation.

But we started out of American Printing House for the Blind about 2019, and, you know, the goal was to make indoor navigation accessible for the blind and low vision, you know, with American Printing House being our parent company, that's, of course, main goal is, you know, blind and low vision, which was great.

And we exceeded with that with our previous app, Good Maps Explore.

And we, you know, as we were expanding, they were getting questions like, well, if you can do this for the blind and low vision, why can't you do it for everyone?

Or why can't you do it with the deaf or the wheelchair users that might be around or neurodiverse, things like that.

So, you know, we, we worked on that, I say we, the people that are smarter than me in the development team, the mapping team, they, they worked on a, on new app, which now was released in end of October of last year, it is, like I said, it's an inclusive app now and accessible for blind, low vision, deaf, neurodiverse wheelchair users, you know, people who just get lost.

I joke with people when I had 2020, I still couldn't find my classes on my college campus.

So, you know, it helps everyone, but it has an augmented reality aspect now.

So it's got the arrows as you're walking through, it's got a visual map, you know, full directory of whatever ports of interest, locations you want to go to in that venue.

And you know, it's free to the user, the venue will pay towards getting the application in their, you know, building.

But yeah, it comes with unlimited usage, say in an airport or things like that.

So you know where we are, we're in about seven different countries at the moment, and I think it might be eight soon, but a lot of transit, such as, you know, Portland International Airport Network Rail in London, all of their stations, we've got a Bolivian airport, we've got Sound Transit up in Seattle, the BART in San Francisco, and then, you know, universities such as Michigan State University, Louisville, Wichita State, and a few others.

Schools for the Blind, of course, we have about seven partners there, museums, and we're starting to talk to some arenas and stadiums, hopefully that will happen soon, we will see.

And we've got already arena-wise, we have the KFC Young Center in Louisville, a large basketball arena and we're talking, there's a couple of large airports in the US that are, might be coming on board very shortly, so keep your eyes out for that.

And then, you know, we're growing in Canada in the corporate space, like Deloitte, we've got, I was able to go up there in Toronto last fall when I first started and, you know, we're looking to just make any space that's not available for, you know, anyone with a disability to walk through by themselves, trying to make it as accessible as possible and, you know, luckily it's starting to look like a lot of businesses and corporations and universities want that as well.

You know, the focus, I think even in transit in the UK area, they're starting to put it into some of their, you know, writing that it needs to be, there needs to be, you know, accessible wayfinding through the facilities and things like that, whether that's good maps or not, it's still good that, you know, people are focusing in on it, because I mean, for instance, I was at CSUN Assisted Tech Conference a few weeks ago in Anaheim, California, and we had the, Mary out there, their lobby mapped out, I was able to, you know, walk through from my room, I'd take the elevator and open good maps at the bottom, and I'd walk to the Starbucks every morning and then walk to wherever I needed to go in that area by myself and then call my coworker and say, I'm here if you want to come meet me.

Could you explain how good maps would work in particularly for a visually impaired user, how they would use the voiceover option on their phone, because I think that probably messes with a lot of people's mind.

How can a blind person use a phone and see a map, because they're not actually seeing the map, correct?

Right, no, so, for instance, I can kind of run through a little bit of different features for each type of person, but, you know, voiceover is what we use on the phone to swipe through, it announces everything that's on the phone, well, our app actually will announce without you having to type, you know, if you click a route that you want to go to, for instance, if you want to go to the water fountain, it'll give you turn-by-turn directions, audio-wise as well for the blind, you know, it'll say you're approaching a left turn in 13 feet, and then it'll tell you when to turn, and it'll say, you know, a slight left here or, you know, things of that nature without, you just have to hold that phone up, because our app, I will say this, I've kind of skipped over, our app works off the phone camera, so I know a lot of people have heard about the Bluetooth beacons and GPS, well, we use LIDAR technology, which is kind of a 360 imagery, and we go in, we scan a building, and then your phone camera will, like, I always use the word compare, but basically compare what it sees to our previous scan, and this helps with the accuracy, Bluetooth beacons are anywhere from 18 to 40 feet accurate, give or take, some better, some worse, but there's installation, there's facilities, you have to install things, replace batteries, all that good stuff, and then, you know, we, there's no installation for the facilities on our side.

We go in, we scan, we leave, and we put it on our app, and we get to you within a couple of feet of your destination, and, you know, GPS, as we all know, that's great outdoors, it's a great tool, but, you know, you'll still be in an Uber sometimes and get dropped off down the street, you know, it's not the driver's fault, it's just there's a little inconsistency with that system, but that's a side note on how it works, so I kind of ran over that earlier and forgot, but, so that's kind of how the, you know, with the blind low vision, you know, you can use voiceover that the phone comes with, or talk back on Android, and swipe through to go over the tabs and, you know, click where you want to go and things like that, but there will be audio directions without you having to touch anything once you've started the route, you'll just hold the phone up and start walking, and it'll announce where you want to go, or like how far you will go until you turn, and how far you are from your destination, and things like that, and then when it comes to, you know, the deaf and low hearing and things like that, so we've got, like I said, the augmented reality, and also, you know, it'll text at the top to show you, or to tell the user where they're going, as they're going, so they don't have to try and go communicate with someone who may not know sign language, or may not know how to communicate with a deaf individual, you know, and that's a, that's a large thing with the neurodiverse community as well, it may not be that they can't hear, they can't see, or anything like that, they just may not be comfortable speaking to someone that they don't know, or just, you know, sometimes people just don't want to talk to you, you know, and that's fine too, so we can help facilitate that, and when it comes to the wheelchair users, we have a feature that's called step-free routing, so we go into the, you can go into the settings and click step-free, and any route that you're taking, whether it's, you know, from the first to the third, or whatever floor, it'll take you, you know, if you're in the airport, it'll skip any stairs, escalators, and take you straight to the nearest elevator, and, or the correct elevator on your route, but I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to try to navigate a building, and you get to where you want to be, and then there's steps, and then you have to turn around and reroute, you all are saving people from, from that hassle, and it must be a great time saver, I would imagine.

Oh yeah, I mean, I can't, well, I guess I can't imagine in a sense, but never, always have been trying to find the elevator when everybody else is able to take one route down the stairs quickly, and things like that, you know, you're already having to go slower than everyone else while waiting on the elevator to come up, but no less trying to find it, you know, so, and that's, that's kind of our biggest thing right now is, it's, it's great that we're helping everybody at once, you know, of course, that's our main goal is the accessibility for all, you know, the blind vision was our main thing, we've already got that taken care of, let's do it for everybody else, but also it helps when speaking to venues and organizations, you know, everybody wants to help the blind vision, but say there's only three blind people that come in that venue, every, you know, six months, you know, trying to get the, those people to buy into the app, if it only helps a few people, but if you say, Oh, we're accessible for everyone, and you'll have a map of your location that you may not have had before, or if you did looks, for instance, a shopping mall, a lot of those maps are out there, but they're not accessible.

And so, you know, we're able to say we've got a map of your location, and it's accessible for anybody walking or rolling into your spot.

That's great.

Absolutely.

You need to give it as much broad appeal as possible.

And that's what will help the technology get into more places.

So what is in the future for good apps?

Is there anything new on the horizon that you all would like to do?

I mean, I think right now, or, you know, we've been focused in on transit and airports because they honestly made the most sense, but they also been interested in us.

But, you know, like I said, we're in all types of places, we're going to continue to try and be in universities and museums, all that.

But I think kind of a cool side of things for me, because I'm a huge sports fan, is trying to get into some sports venues.

Why not?

You know, even if you don't have a disability, I know when I wanted to run to the restroom or something, when I had vision, I wanted to know where it was so I could get there quick and not miss a big play or miss part of a concert or, you know, something like that.

And a lot of big places like that, they want the maps in general.

And coming to find out it's helpful for everybody too.

So it's just a plus.

So that would that's a cool thing that we're in talks about right now is, you know, sporting venues, concerts, things like that, but also, you know, just continuously moving across the world, but also state by state too.

So, and you know, as my title Community Engagement, I'm here to kind of spread the word and, you know, let people know across the US specifically for me, you know, where are you at?

Where might you want this application?

You know, it's and, you know, we can't go map out a Starbucks or a subway because it just doesn't logistically make sense for us or the venue.

But, you know, if there's anything like that in your area, you want to advocate for and whatnot, just reach out to us.

We're, we're open to talk with anybody, whether it makes sense or not, we'll find out for you.

So, Kevin, we spoke about your transition from having vision to the vision loss, the transition of you learning to live as a quote unquote blind person.

And it seems mobility and having freedom to move around your environment really helped you really regain your confidence.

And I wonder if you would kind of tie the two together with Good Maps and other similar programs.

How important is it for a disabled person, be it them in a wheelchair or, or visually impaired or hearing impaired?

Tell us how important do you think it is to be mobile and stay mobile and really try to achieve that in your life?

Oh, yeah, I mean, it's, you have to.

And it's one of those things I always tell people.

So Good Maps, we call it a tool in the tool belt.

Have as many tools in your tool belt as possible.

Don't be scared to leave the house like I was for that little bit of time.

You know, I'll, I'll be, I'll be testing with people with the app and, you know, they might be scared to hold their phone up because people might steal it or something like that.

I'm like, well, you're out and, you know, you're out and about, you're doing pretty good right now.

I wouldn't worry about your phone being stolen.

You're doing great.

You can just have the confidence and, you know, be able to walk around, you know, like I was in Seattle a month or two ago, and I'll be able to walk around the station by myself, whether I was using the app or not, is just a life changer.

Get back.

There's no, nobody's normal, but get back to a normal sense in your mind that you can go to the grocery store by yourself.

You can, you know, continue education.

You can go to a concert or, you know, things like that where you're still living your life in the way that you want.

It's not going to be the same as before.

You know, when you lost your vision, it's not going to be the same when you had sight, but you can still do the same things that you did before, just in a different way.

And, you know, having the confidence to do so is the biggest thing.

You know, I'll shout that to the rooftops with confidence because that's the main thing that helped me with mobility is, you know, I could, you know, at the beginning, when I started learning a cane, I knew how to use a cane, but I didn't go out and do it because I was scared or I had fear or nervous, which are all understandable, but taking that first step out the door, you know, walking around the neighborhood or, you know, getting an Uber down to the city and being able to just walk around to a restaurant that you like, or, you know, things like that.

Once you start doing that, you'll get more comfortable.

People, you know, you'll realize people want to help you if you need it.

Sometimes it's too much.

Sometimes people don't know how to help that.

That's okay, too.

At least they're trying.

And, you know, once you start doing that, you'll realize there's a lot more good in the world than being worried about, you know, walking around with your phone or whatever to be stolen.

You'll realize there's a lot more good than bad when it comes to people seeing you out and about with that white cane.

There's some advantages of the cane, not to say that.

And I don't know if you were anything like me, and I want to kind of speak to listeners out there who might be in that transition where they're not using the cane yet.

I remember when I was losing my vision and going from the point where I could no longer walk safely without assistance, and I had to use the cane.

I didn't want to identify.

I felt the cane made me identify as a blind person.

And you fight that for a while, and you don't want to take out that cane.

But once you take out the cane and start to use it, and you realize, oh my gosh, I was trying to depend on something that wasn't dependable for so long.

Now I have this cane, this tool, and it just provides so much freedom.

And before you know it, you're just whipping out that cane with confidence.

You know how the cane folds.

And do you ever just take the elastic off and you just whip it out because you know people are watching.

And it provides this sense of confidence instead of this sense of shame that you might've felt in the very beginning.

Yeah.

And it's, I mean, it's almost funny because I do understand, you know, I went through that whole stage and it took me a long time, like I said, a couple of years.

But now looking back, it's funny because I cannot imagine what I looked like when I was trying to walk around without a cane.

Because I do know I was in my small town and hometown in Kentucky about a year into losing my vision, didn't have a cane or anything like that.

And I was just walking around, I think there was a small concert or something downtown and people thought I was just hammered drunk.

And I was like, I get stopped, like, are you okay?

And I'm like turning around and I'm like, I'm fine.

Like, it's over.

What is, you know, what is going on?

And people look at you that way because they don't know your blood.

And, you know, I have a, sometimes a joking, I guess, way I talk.

And so I'd say to people, I don't know, like in the tone of my voice, it sounded like I was joking.

And I wasn't, you know, it was hard to explain.

Yes, I am blind.

How are you going to prove it?

Nobody asks questions when you got a white cane.

They get it.

I joke, I'll be walking around with buddies at an airport or, you know, at a sporting event and people part like the Red Sea.

And if they don't accidentally run into you, they say, sorry, like, you know, and that's, and it's good.

And it's funny.

Like it's, but people are almost amazed at you.

And, you know, and, you know, it's, it's kind of cool to see that, but also cool to prove them, Hey, this shouldn't be amazing.

This should just be normal.

And, you know, just living your life should be normal.

But, you know, it's, it's getting those people that don't understand to understand.

And also, you know, that goes from the sighted or the blind individuals who don't understand what it's like to use the cane and be mobile and just have confidence while doing so.

Well, Kevin, you have an amazing story.

You've went out there, you've made a way, you're making things more accessible for lots of people across the nation and hopefully across the world.

And I commend you for it.

And I thank you for being on the program.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

So thank you so much.

I appreciate it.

And hopefully everybody that listens to this will look up good maps and see what we're about.

Absolutely.

And we will link it to the show notes.

Thanks again, Kevin.

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If you'd like a transcript, please send us an email to demand and disrupt at gmail.com and put transcript in the subject line.

Thanks to Steve Moore for helping us out with transcripts.

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Demand and Disrupt is a publication of the Advocato Press with generous support from the Center for Accessible Living located in Louisville, Kentucky.

And you can find links to buy the book, A Celebration of Family, Stories of Parents with Disabilities, in our show notes.

Thanks everyone.

I think I would agree We both know there's a difference We've had our curtain call And this time the writing's on the wall This wall of words we can't defend Two damaged hearts refused to mend Change This situation's pointless With each and every day It's not a game we need to play Change We try to make things better Prepare and rearrange things But each and every letter Spells out defeat for us to Open up our minds and hearts to change Change Provertize them what will be will be Disregard for good to set us free Change There's just no way of knowing If love lives any more Turn off the light then close the door Change We try to make things better Prepare and rearrange things But each and every letter Spells out defeat for us to Open up our minds and hearts to change Change you you Episode 30 Kevin Kline.txt Open with Google Docs Displaying Episode 30 Kevin Kline.txt.

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