Episode 45: Enabling Independence
Sam talks with Ryan Creech from the Human Development Institute about his work making digital media accessible to people with all disabilities. They also talk about the Appalachian Assistive Technology Loan Fund, which helps people with disabilities get low or no interest loans for assistive technology.
They discuss Ryan’s chapter in the book, “A Celebration of Family: Stories of Parents with Disabilities. The book is available from Amazon, or try checking it out from your local library. If you can’t borrow it there, ask your librarian about ordering it.
Visit Sam’s podcast, Blabbin’ in the Bluegrass
Thanks to Chris Ankin for use of his song, “Change.”
The book "A Celebration of Family: Stories of Parents with Disabilities." is available from Amazon here.
Be sure to follow the Advocado Press Facebook page
Visit Moving Forward, the Advocado Press blog.
Send comments and questions to [email protected]
Demand and Disrupt is sponsored by the Advocado Press and the Center For Accessible Living.
You can find the transcript in the show notes below when they become available.
Transcript
Robotic Voice 00:04 You're listening to Demand and Disrupt, the podcast for information about accessibility, advocacy, and all things disability.
Kimberly Parsley 00:12 Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast. I am your host, Kimberly Parsley.
Sam Moore 00:18 And I'm Sam Moore. Happy New Year, Kimberly!
Kimberly Parsley 00:22 Happy New Year, Sam!
Kimberly Parsley 00:23 How was your holiday?
Sam Moore 00:25 Oh, it was great. Both of them, even though I was a little sickly in the middle, but nothing on Christmas Day itself. So I was glad to be able to enjoy that before my little bit of sniffle set in. And now I appear to be on the back end. So, you know, New Year's Day was pretty enjoyable as well. Did you make it up till midnight New Year's Eve, Kimberly?
Kimberly Parsley 00:52 Um, well, I was laying in bed reading. Does that count?
Sam Moore 00:56 Well, at least you were awake. [laughter]
Sam Moore 00:58 So I guess that counts for something.
Kimberly Parsley 01:00 I guess so. Yeah, I guess that counts. [laughter]
Sam Moore 01:04 Too much of a celebratory time not to enjoy those.
Kimberly Parsley 01:08 So did you party hard on New Year's Eve?
Sam Moore 01:11 I went to a hockey game over in Evansville with a buddy of mine. So, I guess, you know, I didn't party hard, but I did party. And, you know, they have indoor fireworks at the conclusion of the game on New Year's Eve always. So, you know, I do enjoy those, although I did hold my ears because, you know, as loud as fireworks are on the outside, they're even louder inside.
Kimberly Parsley 01:42 Wow. Yeah. So is that like, I've never been to a hockey game before. Right. Is there such a thing as like major league hockey and minor league hockey or those?
Sam Moore 01:52 Yes. This is very minor league. [laughter] In fact, it's below, you know, it's below the traditional minor leagues that that people think of. But it's like an independent league almost.
Kimberly Parsley 02:05 Oh, cool! Uh-huh.
Sam Moore 02:07 The Evansville Thunderbolts. But, yeah, as far as major league like the NHL, that's like, you know... Your Nashville Predators, just a little down from you, there, kimberly.
Kimberly Parsley 02:18 Which I have never gone to. Is hockey, I mean, is it hard to follow like for a blind person?
Sam Moore 02:28 Yeah, I mean, it probably, well, it probably would be easier if I were more of a fan. [laughter] I'm more of a football, I'm more of a football, basketball fan, I'll admit. But I can go to a hockey game and have a decent enough time with the refreshments and, you know, the atmosphere and the fireworks afterwards, even though I held my ears. [chuckle] I still got the adrenaline rush and the vibration and things like that.
Kimberly Parsley 02:55 Yeah. You know, a lot of times it's just, it's just being, being in that, being around the stuff, you know, it's not like I don't care. We have here in Bowling Green in the summer, we have the Bowling Green Hot Rods.
Sam Moore 03:10 Oh yeah!
Kimberly Parsley 03:12 I like baseball.
Kimberly Parsley 03:13 I used to watch the Cubs all the time.
Sam Moore 03:16 Oh, you used to be a Cubs fan.
Kimberly Parsley 03:18 Yeah, well, i'm still a Cubs fan. I just don't follow it very much because I just, you know, don't really have time, and so I could not care one whit about what happens on the field, but it is fun just to be around people, be in the stands, you know.
Sam Moore 03:33 Yeah.
Kimberly Parsley 03:34 That kind of thing.
Sam Moore 03:34 Enjoy your hot dogs or your nachos.
Kimberly Parsley 03:38 Yeah. Even a high school football game. When we go to high school football games, I don't care. Well, I care who wins. It's just more interesting to me to be around other people. Talk to people you never have met before, you know, that kind of thing. It's a way to be around other people that you don't really have anything in common with. But you're meeting new people.
Sam Moore 04:05 You're meeting new people and striking up friendships. Let's see, your kids are, Ian goes to, is it Warren Central? Is that where he goes?
Kimberly Parsley 04:15 Nope. He goes to Bowling Green High.
Sam Moore 04:17 He's a purple.
Kimberly Parsley 04:18 He's a purple, yeah. He's a purple and, we go to some of their—my daughter's in the band, so sometimes they have the band do stuff.
Sam Moore 04:31 Oh, sure. And Bowling Green has a great football tradition.
Kimberly Parsley 04:36 I hear, it will be horrible that I don't actually know this, but I think they have just won the state championship.
Sam Moore 04:53 You know, I should know but I couldn't tell ya, if not, I'm sure they were pretty darn close because they're always competitive.
Kimberly Parsley 05:03 Yeah, they either won the state championship or they went to the championship game. Yeah, I don't actually know.
Kimberly Parsley 05:04 I know. Please, please forgive us. I could holler in there and ask my son, but I figured his answer would be something like, bro, I play the cello. [laughter]
Sam Moore 05:14 Like, you didn't know, but yes, the purples, even if they didn't win it they were within striking distance, i'm sure, so they're just always tough. Them and south warren, I know south warren tends to be the you know, the...
Sam Moore 05:31 The team to beat.
Sam Moore 05:32 King of the throne down there these days, but Bowling Green's not far behind them.
Kimberly Parsley 05:36 Yeah, yeah.
Sam Moore 05:36 King of the throne down there these days, but Bowling Green's not far behind them.
Kimberly Parsley 05:37 I don't know. You know, one year, this is funny, it was my New Year's resolution to go to more events like concerts and plays and football games, things like that. And I know what you're saying. And I know what year—
Sam Moore 05:54 Say there's main competitions.
Kimberly Parsley 05:55 Yes, yes, stuff like that. And I know what year that was. The year I made that resolution, it was 2020. [chuckle]
Sam Moore 06:02 2020? [chuckle] Oh, well, you were naturally a bit limited that year in what you should do.
Kimberly Parsley 06:07 So I did not—apologies for my dog...
Sam Moore 06:15 The dog doesn't want to be left out.
Kimberly Parsley 06:15 She does not. She says more trips to the dog park, please.
Sam Moore 06:18 Yes. [laughter] Keep dropping hints.
Kimberly Parsley 06:21 So New Year's resolutions. I know people either love talking about them or hate talking about them. Which camp do you fall into, Sam?
Sam Moore 06:29 I don't hate talking about them. I do rather not enjoy making them because they're a lot harder to keep than they are to make. I know the most common one is naturally to lose weight. That's the one I do hear about more than anything. But, you know, I try to stay in pretty decent shape all the time. I do. Santa Claus, I didn't tell you this, but he he also brought me a new stationary bike because— Kimberly Parsley 07:01 Oh, boy! Sam Moore 07:02 —Because the one I had was kind of on its last leg. You know I try to hit the stationary bike and go nowhere fast a couple times a week. [laughter] So I can at least stay in, you know, fair shape all year to, you know, offset all the junk that I—eat. So, but you know, that's the most common one I hear I know is to, to, to lose weight. It seems like the one you made, if it weren't for 2020, that attending more events would be a lot more doable.
Kimberly Parsley 07:38 Yeah, I mean, I don't make hard ones. I only make them if I really care, you know.
Sam Moore 07:47 Those are the ones that you're more inclined to make them happen because you care about them. [chuckle]
Kimberly Parsley 07:56 Yeah, I mean, this year mine is: stop apologizing all the time, you know. That's the thing that, I think it's a thing. A lot of, a lot of people do is you, you know, something happens, you're like, oh, I'm sorry. You're like, why am I saying I'm sorry? That I didn't, that wasn't my fault.
Sam Moore 08:12 You don't always mean you're sorry when you say it. [laughter]
Kimberly Parsley 08:14 No, no. And a lot of times it's, at least with women it's code for—oh forgive me for taking up space—and you know, that. So that's something I'm gonna try to stop doing and along those lines stop people pleasing because that's kind of, they go along the same lines.
Sam Moore 08:34 Yeah, you know, I'm a people pleaser too, but you can't please everybody. It's impossible.
Kimberly Parsley 08:39 You can't, you can't, but if you're a people pleaser who also has some perfectionism, then man, you're... [chuckle]
Sam Moore 08:46 Yeah, that's [chuckle] I can relate to you on that, though, when you just, you know.
Kimberly Parsley 08:50 Yeah, It's tough.
Sam Moore 08:52 Some people's requests, though, and their expectations just aren't realistic.
Kimberly Parsley 08:58 And yeah, yeah. Now the thing that I do, I set reading goals and they're always fun. I think my reading, yeah, like my reading goal, I love to read. It's like my main hobby. Like I would, I want to, this one I set last year and I, for whatever reason, and I don't even know why I didn't make it was to read all of Charles Dickens novels.
Sam Moore 09:19 All of them!
Kimberly Parsley 09:20 All of them.
Sam Moore 09:20 That's a lofty goal.
Kimberly Parsley 09:21 Yes. Well, i had already read a lot of them, i'd already read a lot of them but i think my mistake was starting with Bleak House.
Sam Moore 09:31 Bleak House. [laughter]
Kimberly Parsley 09:32 If you start with a book called Bleak House, it's really going to turn you off to continuing on. [chuckle]
Sam Moore 09:38 Yeah, that's a rough place to start. [chuckle]
Kimberly Parsley 09:41 So, yes. So I am. So that is a goal resolution of mine. And then also, as you and I have talked about, I think I've even talked about this, on this podcast.
Sam Moore 09:53 On this happy, little platform.
Kimberly Parsley 09:54 Oh, yes, yes. I am relearning Braille. I see. Because of limitations, I have to now I'm just deciding to start from the very beginning and relearn it because I have to use like the side of my thumb because I have some sensitivity issues on my hand, my finger that I used to read Braille on.
Sam Moore 10:11 Well, I've got to admit, that would be an adjustment for me, you know, because I'm like most people. I read Braille primarily with the pointer fingers.
Kimberly Parsley 10:18 Yes. And as did I, as did I. And now I can't feel, I mean, I can feel that there's something there, but I cannot. No, not at all. So I'm having to kind of relearn and that's slow because you know holding your hand the way i have to hold it it's kind of hard on your wrist so i'm trying to do that and my goal is to tackle—get ready for this, y'all—all of the book, Frog and Toad are friends. [chuckle]
Sam Moore 10:46 Frog and Toad. Now that is, Frog and Toad are friends. That's a blast from the past.
Kimberly Parsley 10:51 I know it's some deep work I got going on there.
Sam Moore 10:55 What other books were nuts?
Sam Moore 10:57 There was Frog and Toad All Year.
Kimberly Parsley 10:59 Yes, yes, I've seen that one. A frog and toad together.
Sam Moore 11:03 There were several of them.
Kimberly Parsley 11:04 Yes, yes. And they're adorable and they're cute. But I got frustrated last night and I gave up on Frog and Toad and I'm reading an Elephant and Piggie book.
Sam Moore 11:16 Elephant and Piggie. Ok.
Kimberly Parsley 11:17 Elephant and Piggie, any of those people who have small children, you know Elephant and Piggie, written by Mo Willems, who also wrote the Pigeon books. All the parents or aunts or uncles or whoever grandparents out there, you'll know what I'm talking about.
Sam Moore 11:34 So, yeah, if we just, you know, conquer that first and then and then just get past the frog and toad friendship by the end of the year, you know, that's if we can just tackle the friendship, that's a reasonable resolution.
Kimberly Parsley 11:46 Braille is hard! Braille is hard. Reading is hard. Writing Braille is hard. So.
Sam Moore 11:53 I started learning in kindergarten and I didn't, I was too young to really think about how hard it was, but I guess it was probably three or four years before I learned the full Braille code, you know.
Kimberly Parsley 12:07 Yes, but I mean, you could probably still, I mean, you may have to practice a little bit, but you could probably pick it up since you started so young, you could probably still pick it up.
Sam Moore 12:15 Oh, yeah. Like I said, I still read it a fair amount, although it's, you know, there's new renditions of Braille, shall we say, that have been adapted in recent years.
Kimberly Parsley 12:27 There are, that's a whole debate in the blind community.
Sam Moore 12:27 I would have to brush up on people.
Kimberly Parsley 12:29 People will choose sides over UEB, Unified English Braille for or against.
Kimberly Parsley 12:36 I'm telling you, it'll come to fisticuffs is what happened.
Sam Moore 12:39 You know some people feel strongly enough about it to like get in the ring and and and fine [laughter]
Kimberly Parsley 12:49 They might, I think they might. I think people have opinions, they really do.
Sam Moore 12:49 But speaking of books, Kimberly, people should know that here, in a few weeks, the tables will be turned and you will be a special guest on my Blabbing in the Bluegrass podcast.
Kimberly Parsley 13:02 I will. I will. I'm looking forward to it. Go easy on me, Sam.
Sam Moore 13:08 No promises on that.
Kimberly Parsley 13:09 Looking forward to that.
Kimberly Parsley 13:10 You're going to ask me all about my former career as a romance writer, correct?
Sam Moore 13:15 Yes, Kimberly was a writer in her past time, and she and a friend of hers wrote romance novels, among a few other things that we will dabble in, and then we'll even tease a few stuff that's not out there currently.
Kimberly Parsley 13:32 That's right. That's right. I'm looking. We're not going to spoil it here. People have to go listen. We'll put a link to Sam's podcast in the show notes.
Sam Moore 13:42 You will have to listen, but it will definitely be worth listening to. We can assure you of that.
Kimberly Parsley 13:49 Well, I hope so. I'm looking forward to it.
Sam Moore 13:53 It's going to be fun.
Kimberly Parsley 13:55 It absolutely will. i think so. Lots of stuff coming up, lots of stuff. I wanted to ask our listeners, what they had in mind for next year? I've been kicking around some ideas, and I wonder if people would be interested in lots of books about disability come out. And I do love to read. So I wonder if people would be interested in us doing a book club. You know, we can do it on Facebook or Discord or just whatever. Just so if that is interesting to anybody, we could do it over Zoom. Well, if that's something you all think you might want to do, let me know before I pour a lot of time into, you know, figuring that out. Let me know if that's something you might like. You can get onto our Facebook at the Advocado Press Facebook page. And we have a link to that in the show notes. Always, always, the email is [email protected]. So tell me what you think about that. Tell me what other ideas people have. Sam, you got ideas. You've always got ideas.
Sam Moore 15:03 Oh, well, yeah, no, I try to make sure that my wheels are at least halfway spinning on a 24-7 basis. But yes, I like your thought there with the books and, you know, you know, books centered around disabilities. Perhaps we can have some authors of those well-written and insightful books on the show.
Kimberly Parsley 15:24 Wouldn't that be great?
Sam Moore 15:25 In the weeks and months to come here and like you said listener feedback is always deeply appreciated because there's things that maybe y'all think about that we don't necessarily so don't be shy about sending those social media messages and email addresses. No, well—you've got the email address—the emails.
Kimberly Parsley 15:50 Right. Yes. Yes. We would. I would love to hear from people.
Sam Moore 15:55 Yeah, anything around the disabilities and those with special stories who have disabilities and they're. Advocacy efforts. Let us know. If you're one of those people, don't be shy. Don't be bashful. Let us know about yourself. [chuckle]
Kimberly Parsley 16:10 Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I have a couple of people email me the subject of one of our podcast interviews. It's Jerry Wheatley. He's in the podcast episode, My Blindness Mentor.
Sam Moore 16:19 Oh, yes.
Kimberly Parsley 16:22 And he emails. Thanks, Jerry. He emails regularly and also Rick Broderick. Also, yes, yes, he emails me. So I do love to get the emails. I really do or messages in any form. I appreciate it so much.
Sam Moore 16:40 Or you can call Kimberly at 270-
Kimberly Parsley 16:42 No, no, you can't call me. [chuckle]
Sam Moore 16:43 Only kidding, I wasn't going to give out the rest of the number, don't worry. [chuckle] I just wanted to make your heart skip a few beats.
Kimberly Parsley 16:52 Because then people would call. [laughter]
Sam Moore 16:55 They would, wouldn't they? [laughter]
Kimberly Parsley 16:56 It would be fine because I don't really answer my phone. [laughter]
Sam Moore 17:01 Oh, mercy, but yes, we don't bite, Pete. So send us your ideas. We definitely always appreciate that.
Kimberly Parsley 17:10 Absolutely. Absolutely. So one of our friends of the podcast is the person you interviewed. So tell us about that.
Sam Moore 17:18 That's right. Ryan Creech is his name. He works for HDI, Human Development Institute, which is actually affiliated with the University of Kentucky. And anyway, he deals with accessible digital media and making that possible for people not only with blindness, but with other disabilities as well. So, you know, he helps to make websites, per se, and PDF files, things that tend to cause issues for us as we try to read them. He works on making them readable. That's part of his job, a major part of his job duty. So, you know, PDF files, as we know, Kimberly, can be pretty, at least in years past, they were. You know, quite contrary. They're much improved now. But they still, you know, they still pose issues from time to time. And it's great to know that there are people like Ryan Creech to help us work around those.
Kimberly Parsley 18:30 Well, excellent. I can't wait to hear your interview. Ryan is a very kind, helpful, delightful person. He's hilarious to talk with. So I can't wait to hear your interview that you did with Ryan Creech.
Sam Moore 18:45 Enjoy, peeps.
Sam Moore 18:50 Well, HDI has opened up many doors for many people, and here with me today, I am so pleased to be joined by a specialist in the realm of accessible digital media. So what exactly is that, and how exactly does that become a reality for those with various disabilities, not just blindness or visual impairments, but others as well. We'll talk about that and much, much more with the specialist himself who works for We will tell you what that stands for. It is actually a part of the University of Kentucky, and so we'll talk about how he ended up there, the career pathway that he took there, also the disability he has and how he has managed to overcome that. Joining me directly via Zoom from Rockcastle County, Kentucky, about an hour roughly southeast of Lexington, let's hear it for Mr. Ryan Creech.
Ryan Creech 20:00 Hey, Sam! It's great to be here.
Sam Moore 20:02 It's great to be with you, sir. You are, you know, in a great area. You said it was in the middle of nothing, but you do have Renfro Valley basically at your doorstep. So you're never far from great, great music. And are you a lifelong Rockcastle County in there, Ryan?
Ryan Creech 20:22 No, no, we've been here for, see, we moved here in 2017, live on about 40 acres where my mother-in-law grew up, and got a bunch of cows and chickens, and we have a good time out here. I like being in the middle of nowhere, it's peaceful.
Sam Moore 20:35 All right. You don't have any sort of vision loss whatsoever, but an accident, I know, caused you to be paralyzed, but you've dealt with that very successfully ever since. So tell us a little bit about what happened to you and how you bounced back and sort of made the best of it, if you will.
Ryan Creech 21:02 Of course, sure. So, yeah, back in 2007, that was the year that I graduated from, by then it was the University of the Cumberlands, with my undergraduate degree. and when I graduated, my stepdad came to visit to see graduation, and it had been a couple of years since we'd connected. He's my ex-stepdad, and he said, "Well, why don't you come and visit me in North Carolina?" So, that's what I decided to do for the summer. So, a couple of weeks after I graduated, I went to visit, and the first day I was there, we decided to go out to an off-road track and ride ATVs. I'd never been on one before, and pretty quickly after we got there, I managed to wreck really, really good. So, yeah, so I kind of jumped up airborne and slammed into the ground, and the four-wheeler bounced up and down on me a couple of times. It broke my back. I have a T6, T7 spinal cord injury, which is about the bottom of my ribcage down, I'm paralyzed. I also had a broken sternum and some various other small injuries, but yeah, so I had to be taken to the hospital and then get on the helicopter and it was a big thing, it was very, very, traumatic.
Sam Moore 22:26 No doubt. How long were you in the hospital?
Ryan Creech 22:30 Let's see. I spent about a week in the hospital in North Carolina, and then my family paid an exorbitant amount of money to have me flown back to Ohio so that I would be closer to my parents and grandparents. And so I then went to the Drake Center in Cincinnati for about two months and then moved in with my parents and did outpatient therapy for about a year before I was able to move back to Kentucky.
Sam Moore 23:04 Oh, goodness. So it wasn't a quick bounce back, but it was a successful one. And all the all the hard work and determination definitely paid off.And you are in a wheelchair, but that's opened up a number of doors for you, though. And, you know, sort of made it allow you to be relatively mobile despite your accident.
Ryan Creech 23:30 Yeah. And, you know, and it actually it's what brought me into the assistive technology realm and into the ultimately into the kind of accessible media stuff that I do now. I got a job working for the Cooperative Extension Service in Whitley County where I lived. And through that experience, I got busy doing a lot of social media and outreach and marketing type of stuff for them, web design. And they connected me with the Kentucky AgrAbility program, which unfortunately lost their grant funding and has shuttered since then. But Kentucky AgrAbility was an organization that was dedicated to helping farmers with disabilities to continue farming. And so I got teamed up with the Kentucky AgrAbility project, and that was really my first exposure to kind of helping connect people with services or devices to make their lives better and, you know, kind of help them overcome the limitations from their disabilities.
Sam Moore 24:43 Okay, so that was your first taste of the realm of assistive technology.
Ryan Creech 24:51 Yeah. And so I really don't have an education in that specifically, but it's kind of a lived experience education. You know, I have relied so much on assistive technology. As you mentioned, I use a wheelchair and that's my entire mobility. Like I am, I am completely, you know, reliant on that to help, but it does give me so much freedom and opens doors and things. And so, you know, kind of bringing in that and my own personal. Just trying to live independently in the world is where I've learned a lot of the practical applications.
Sam Moore 25:33 See, so assistive technology is one of those things that you've basically learned through experience through the school of hard knocks pretty much. [chuckle]
Ryan Creech 25:42 Right, right.
Sam Moore 25:43 Absolutely. So you went to University of Cumberland. You said that assistive technology wasn't where your education fell exactly. What did you study at the University of Cumberland?
Ryan Creech 25:57 When I got there, I was majoring, I was an English major and planning to teach high school. So I was an English, um, secondary education major with a minor in computer science. Five years later, I graduated with no education degree. I did everything but student teach, but I graduated with a major in English, and a second major in communication arts, which, so that was a lot like communication theory, but also, for me, at least it was a big focus on TV and radio production. So sort of a campus radio station and, and, and worked on the TV stations.
Sam Moore 26:40 Okay, so you did a little radio and TV there, and it was sort of a mixed bag of audio and visuals for you. [chuckle]
Ryan Creech 26:46 Yeah, right, right.
Sam Moore 26:49 At the University of Cumberland. You did on-campus radio, and that I know was fun. Did you ever do any commercial radio after that?
Ryan Creech 27:02 I did just a little bit like very, very part time for a local radio station there in Williamsburg. But mostly I did like, I started doing kind of like event audio and like event lighting, those sorts of things. I was really big. Also, as part of that arts major was really big into technical theater stuff. So doing sound design and lighting design and that kind of work. And that's a little bit more of what I was doing on the side rather than commercial radio.
Sam Moore 27:37 Okay, so you got a little bit of a commercial radio under your belt to supplement the other stuff on your radio or on your resume, I should say. [chuckle]
Ryan Creech 27:49 There you go.
Sam Moore 27:49 So you ended up becoming an assistive technologist with OVR. I'm guessing you landed there right after or shortly after your stint at Kentucky AgrAbility, correct?
Ryan Creech 28:10 Yeah, that's right. So Kentucky AgrAbility, I started working for them, and that was around 2009 or so. And then in 2010, AgrAbility paid for my wife and I to attend the No Barriers Conference in Colorado and No Barriers is an adaptive recreation conference. And so they bring in people from all over the world and you can just try out all sorts of adaptive recreation and there are seminars on planning building adaptive rec programs and, you know, funding and that kind of stuff yeah so it was a really interesting experience and one day the AgrAbility program director and i were playing hookies from the conference. We decided we wanted to go up to Lake Granby and kind of see some of the Rocky Mountain National Park out there. So, he and I went and we also had with us the director of the assistive technology program at folk rehab. She was attending the conference along with us. And while we were up on top of the mountain at the visitor center, she got a call that the assistive technology specialist that was in my area where i lived, was quitting, she was leaving. She was living out of state. And so, she got the phone call, and she looked at me, and she said, "Have you ever considered assistive technology as a job?" And I was like, "I don't know what that is, but I'd be willing to learn more about, I'll give it a shot."
Sam Moore 29:55 I'll give it a shot. [laughter]
Ryan Creech 29:57 Yeah, yeah. So from there, I mean, we kind of went from there and I, you know, I did some more like talking with her and learned that some of the skills that I had, some of the technology stuff, some of the biggest thing for doing work like that is you have to be able to analyze processes, think critically, good problem solving skills. And I had built those not knowing that they were useful in the assistive technology field, but ultimately I interviewed and there were several really great candidates and they decided that it was worth taking me on, not because I had extensive assistive technology background, but because I had lots of other skills that could be very useful and kind of generalized.
Sam Moore 30:48 That you had honed in your previous position. So how about that for timing, so here you are in Colorado on top of the mountain. You meet this lady, she gets a call, you know, it's just all about being in the right place at the right time, isn't it? [laughter]
Ryan Creech 31:06 Exactly, yeah.
Sam Moore 31:08 For sure. Absolutely. Well, that's awesome. Now, a rehabilitation technologist is what you became at Voc Rehab. And that title is not one that a handful of our listeners are possibly familiar with. So why don't you describe, and I know you've sort of alluded to it already, but let's expand a little more on the purpose of this post that you held with OVR along with the primary clientele with whom you worked.
Ryan Creech 31:44 Sure, sure. So yeah, so I got hired on in 2011. And I was actually hired by the University of Kentucky and the Human Development Institute, HDI. And so they were paying my salary. And then, I worked for the Voc Rehab Office as a contract. So HDI has a contract with Vocational Rehabilitation to provide them with knowledgeable assistive technology or rehabilitation technology specialists. And so that was where I was. So I was technically an employee of UK, but all of my day-to-day work was in VR.
Sam Moore 32:28 Yeah, UK was paying you, but your duties were an OVR. [laughter]
Ryan Creech 32:34 That's right. That's right. And so, but yeah, so assistive technology or rehabilitation technology, they're kind of synonymous. And basically, if you think about technology, technology makes life easier for everyone, right? Like our cell phones or even cars, I wear eyeglasses, you know, those are kind of technology things that make life easier for everybody. But assistive technology or rehabilitative technology are products, services, techniques that make things possible for someone with a disability. So we think of people with disabilities as having functional limitations. So because of your disability, there are tasks that you want to do that you are not able to do. So assistive technology is anything. It can be something high tech, but it could also be something super low tech that helps bridge that gap between what you want to do and what you are physically or mentally capable of doing.
Sam Moore 33:37 Right. Yeah. So you served individuals with all sorts of different disabilities, no doubt.
Ryan Creech 33:46 Yes, yes. Obviously, we did a lot of work with blind and low vision folks. And when I started at VR, there were two separate agencies. We had the Office for the Blind, and then we had the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation. And during my tenure there, we combined the two into just the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation. And we did have technologists within our group that were more specialized for folks with visual impairments. But we also, those of us who were kind of, you know, from the VR side, kind of the more general side, did deal with visual impairments as well. And so, but yeah, so I mean, we dealt with everybody from visual impairments to physical impairments. We worked with folks who were going to jobs or going to be self-employed, going to school to kind of work on their skills to get into a vocation. So yeah, it was a wide variety of people and a wide variety of circumstances. And it was just a lot of fun because you never knew day to day what you were going to encounter or what sorts of problems might
Sam Moore 35:06 No. No two days were alike, were they? [chuckle]
Ryan Creech 35:09 Right, right. There were so many, you know, one of the great things about working with people to do accommodations for them on the job is that you get to visit their job site, you know, you get to kind of try to understand the context around their job and what their specific job duties are, and then kind of the analytical part kicks in as you try to break down that job into specific tasks. that, you know, are challenging and then how can we overcome the challenges so that you can be successful and do the job that you want to do.
Sam Moore 35:46 Yeah. You're figuring out how to assist them based on what you learned from them. And you're basically getting to know them in the process, which is pretty fun too. So you left OVR to pursue an opportunity with HDI who you were technically with anyway but you're more so with now. And so before we discuss your area of specialization there, why don't you tell us a little bit about it? You said that HDI stands for Human Developmental Institute. So give us some insight on the commendable services offered by this organization.
Ryan Creech 36:31 Sure, sure. So HDI, or the Human Development Institute, is a department at the University of Kentucky. We fall under the vice president of research and kind of our entire reason for being is that we just house a whole lot of different research projects. We are a university center on developmental disabilities, which means a lot of the research we do and the education programs that we have is around providing supports for folks with developmental disabilities. But there are a lot of programs that are housed within HDI, including Child Care Aware, which trains child care providers across the state, especially in dealing with children with disabilities. We do a lot of work with vocational rehabilitation and other, you know, similar organizations. Supported employment is a big thing. And also, Kind of academic supports for our students with developmental disabilities across the Commonwealth. So HDI, they have their hands in a little bit of everything. A lot of what we do is funded through grants, federal or state government grants, as well as contracts. And so, yeah, most likely anyone who's worked in a social service capacity has been involved with HDI at some point.
Sam Moore 38:03 Your post at HDI, Ryan, is centered around the fascinating specialization of accessible digital media. So before we get to the nuts and bolts of how that happens, why don't you give us a basic feel for the concept of accessible digital media?
Ryan Creech 38:26 Okay, sure. So what we're talking about is accessible ICT is what they, is what it's officially called, but it's Information and Communication Technology. So that can be anything from Word documents to emails to web pages, anything that is digital that you share with the public is kind of what we're talking about. And so when you have a document, whether that's a web page, whether it's a flyer advertising your podcast, that's a PDF, you know, there is kind of the visual perceptible version of that. And then there's also an underlying structure, and it gets read by assistive technology, whether that's a screen reader, whether it's just a person using their computer, whether it's someone accessing it on a cell phone, whenever technology interacts with that item, we want to make sure that no matter how our users get at it, that they are able to perceive it and draw the information and interact with it. in the same way that you know a user without any disabilities would. It's basically, It's bringing that universal design aspect into your electronic media so that you can make sure that no matter what someone's abilities are, that they're able to use your content.
Sam Moore 39:50 Well, and it's great that we have people like yourself to specialize in that because I am a longtime JAWS user, which for those of you don't know, of course, that is a screen reader that's highly popular among the blind and visually impaired community. And I can tell you that in years past, PDFs have been pretty contrary with JAWS, but we've come a long way in recent years, haven't we, sir?
Ryan Creech 40:18 Absolutely, yeah. I believe it was 2007 they first released a draft of the PDF specs to the public, and from then we've developed what's called the PDF Universal Access Standard. So basically we have a set of rules that make a PDF really accessible to a screen reader user, a JAWS user, or someone who is using, say, a Braille, a refreshable Braille display, those kinds of things. We want to make sure that our content is built so that no matter which way you get to it, that you can get it to read in JAWS or get it to output in a way that you can.
Sam Moore 41:07 Yeah, well, it's great that we have that standard so that, you know, PDFs are, you know, situated so that they're inclusive for those. using JAWS screen readers. Now, let's discuss further the means by which you make accessible digital media a reality for those with vision impairments. We touched a little bit on PDFs, but why don't, let's talk about other platforms that folks with visual impairments often find themselves needing to use and sort of the steps you take to make those platforms usable.
Ryan Creech 41:48 Sure. Well, you know, to kind of, as, again, another way of introducing, the World Wide Web Consortium has developed what are called the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, or WCAG guidelines.
Sam Moore 42:06 WCAG, okay.
Ryan Creech 42:07 Yeah, WCAG. And so WCAG is like an international standard that kind of defines what accessible media looks like, okay, and so it's based around four basic principles and they're called the four principles P-O-U-R is an acronym that stands for perceivable so your content has to be, you know, available to the senses to perceive so you know it's got to either be like there's got to be like a visual component or an audio component, you know, your visitors have to be able to perceive the information. It's got to be operable. So in order to be accessible, if you have a web form that people can fill out then it has to be operable for people who are listening to it with JAWS, right. So if you're only using your keyboard to navigate it you have to be able to fill in the form, if you can only use your mouse to operate it you have to be able to fill in the form, if you're using voice like text like speech to text input on your cell phone you have to be able to fill it in the form. It's got to be understandable so when we say something's understandable we mean that we're using common patterns, right, so that people are able to predict and expect what's going to happen next. So if i click the next button at the bottom of that form then i should expect that i'm going to go to another page of form information, right, right. And then it's got to be robust and so when we say robust that's kind of the stuff that we're talking about when you're using a screen reader, when you're using a voice to text, it's got to be able to interact with whatever manner of assistive technology or tool that your users are using to access the site.
Sam Moore 43:58 Okay, so perceivable, operable, understandable, and robust. Those are the four key words, sort of buzzwords.
Ryan Creech 44:09 Right, right. And so accessible documents are documents that basically apply those principles to make sure that the information is available for everyone.
Sam Moore 44:21 Okay, so that, you know, by determining the extent to which they are congruent with each of those four buzzwords and meet that criteria, that's how you determine whether or not a document is accessible. So obviously that's important for those with blindness or, you know, vision limitations of any kind. What other types of disabilities do you attempt to cater to and take into account when you're, you know, designing this special accessible digital media and making it useful to others in need?
Ryan Creech 45:06 Okay, sure. So, you know, you've got, like you mentioned, the visual impairments, whether it's total blindness, whether it's color blindness, even. So, you know, when you're designing a web page or whatever, you want to make sure you're not using only color to convey information. More than 99% of folks who are affected by color blindness have red-green color blindness. So, if you have a bar chart in your document that has red and green or red and blue bars next to each other, those folks would have a lot of trouble differentiating between those lines, those bars. So, you want to add a pattern or something to it in addition to the color, so you're not just using color to convey information. So it could be someone with a cognitive disability. So it could be something like dyslexia. So to help someone with dyslexia better understand stuff, you want to make sure that there's space between the lines if you've got text so that it's easy to follow along to the next line without losing your place. And you also want to make sure that you're using fonts that are readable and that are sized appropriately. And you want to make sure that you're using plain language. So not using a bunch of jargon or, you know, big confusing words that you don't have run on sentences that, you know, you need a degree in English to decipher what they mean. So those are important considerations for folks with kind of the cognitive impairments, and then also folks with hearing, whether it's a hearing loss or complete deafness, you want to make sure that if you're providing content that is, like if you're doing a YouTube video or a podcast, you want to make sure that you have a transcript, right? And you want to make sure that you have closed captioning so that people who are not able to actually hear it can still get the same experience of the information.
Sam Moore 47:21 See, so there's a wide array of folks with a wide array of different types of disabilities that you strive to cater to when you're making this, you know, this type of—
Ryan Creech 47:33 Even—I've left one out—even so, more of the like physical impairment. So I mentioned earlier like having an operable website that you can use if you can only use a keyboard or if you can only use a mouse or if you have someone who is, say, using an eye gaze system, which uses a camera to track your eyes and see where you're looking on the screen. If you have a website, let's say you have like an app that you've built and in order to use features of the app, you have to press a keyboard shortcut that's like, Ctrl+Alt+Shift+W+X, you know, like if you have to press that many keys at once, someone who is not even able to use the keyboard or who only has one hand to use the keyboard would have a lot of trouble doing a super complicated. Keyboard stroke.
Sam Moore 48:26 Key combination, yeah.
Ryan Creech 48:28 Yeah, yeah. So you have to kind of take that into account as well.
Sam Moore 48:32 Sure. So, you know, there's a lot of things, a lot of disabilities that you have to take into account when you're, you know, trying to make these platforms accessible. But that's a very important role and kudos to you for your work in that regard. Now, I'm switching gears a little bit here, Ryan, to supplement your gig at the Human Development Institute, which you work from home, by the way, there in Rockcastle County. You are also on the board of directors for the Apple Action Assistive Technology Loan Fund. Bit of a mouthful there. But anyway, this loan fund has, it's definitely been a lifesaver to many Kentuckians. And I know my partner, Kimberly, did a show on that a while back with a special guest that, you know, details the loan fund in depth. But why don't you, since you're on the board, sir, shed some light on the primary purpose of this fund, along with the eligibility requirements that beneficiaries must meet.
Ryan Creech 49:46 Of course, you know, and so one of the things that you have to consider with the field of assistive technology is, you know, how to access how to pay for these devices and get them into people's hands. In Kentucky, for a long time, we've had the Kentucky Assistive Technology Loan Corporation or KATLC, which has done a great job of providing low interest, sometimes no interest loans for Kentuckians to be able to purchase the assistive technology that they need to kind of improve their quality of life. But unfortunately, right around the time of the beginning of the pandemic. KATLC lost their lending partner. And so they've not been able to provide any loans whatsoever. And so it's kind of left a hole in Kentucky. There are definitely other funding sources. And we can talk about, you know, like the CATS network and kind of their funding guide that they put out that can connect you with grant programs and loans and resources. But KATLC attempts, or I'm sorry, the Appalachian Assistive Technology Loan Fund or the AATLF tries to fill in some of that gap by making loans up to $7,000 for the purchase of assistive technology. It's open to people of all income levels, all ages, all disabilities or health conditions, and in all parts of Kentucky. So basically, all you have to do is have a willingness and ability to repay the loan, and you can apply for it. So anything from $100 up to $7,000 is available through AATLF, and all you have to do is just kind of apply for it. So they'll do kind of a credit check and see what your credit score is, and if the loan is under a certain amount, then it can get approved by just the underwriters. And then if it's over a certain threshold, then it also goes to the board, and the board members kind of review it and then decide whether the credit risk is appropriate. The whole point is to provide no interest and no fee loans to help disabled Kentuckians, sorry, Kentuckians with disabilities to be more independent, be more productive, and have just a better quality of life.
Sam Moore 52:39 Well, it's great that it's so flexible, you know, anything from $100,000 up to $7,000, you know, they can apply for loans to cover those costs. As long as they're, you know, agreeable to pay those loans back, interest-free, of course, but pay those loans back in a reasonable timeframe, but do you know about the amount of time that it's expected or hoped that they're able to pay back those loans, Ryan?
Ryan Creech 53:12 It depends on the particular loan, the amount of the loan, and what the person's capabilities are. One of the great things about it is because ATLF underwrites their own loans, like they are the lender themselves, is that we can set very flexible terms. So it can spread the amount out over years. You know, I'll just throw out, like, so a common request that we get is to help with the purchase of hearing aids. So a set of hearing aids can cost, you know, like a custom molded and adjusted set of hearing aids can easily cost $5,000, $6,000, $7,000. And so being able to take that cost and spread it out over maybe five years, three years, you know, can make it a whole lot more affordable for someone. Especially, if you're on a fixed income, you know, you only have maybe your SSI or SSDI as income or, you know, those kinds of things. Then being able to kind of amortize that out over several years just makes it a lot more accessible to you.
Sam Moore 54:27 So here again, it's flexible in terms of, you know, your income and your situation. So that's another very important aspect of the Apple Action Assistive Technology Loan Fund. I think I'm finally getting decent at saying that. [chuckle] But folks, it's definitely worth taking into account for, you know, regardless of what you need, check into it. And there's a pretty decent chance that this particular fund could be of assistance to you in your situation.
Ryan Creech 54:59 I wanted to mention their website. So if people are interested in applying or learning more about the program, the website is A-A-E-L-F. So again, Appalachian Assistive Technology Loan Fund, A-A-E-L-F.org. And if you just visit that site, then you can find out a little bit more about the program and how everything works. And it's also super easy to apply from there. And you get assigned to basically a caseworker, an underwriter who can take you through the process and help support you along the way.
Sam Moore 55:39 So aatlf.org, and we will link that in the show notes as well to make it even easier for our listeners, Ryan. Now, on another separate note, Kimberly Parsley said that you were actually the focus of a chapter in a book entitled, A Celebration of Family: Stories of Parents with Disabilities. Kimberly said she was quite fascinated by your quest to becoming a parent. So without any huge spoilers, Ryan, for those of us who maybe haven't read the book yet, or at least not that chapter, how about giving us a general gist of your journey and the facets that distinguish it from the normal pathway to parenthood, sir?
Ryan Creech 56:37 Of course. Happy to. So, you know, the book was, you know, kind of a big passion project, especially, you know, it was put together and edited by Dave Mathis and, you know, the Avocado Press, which is kind of a part of the Kentucky's Center for Accessible Living.
Sam Moore 57:00 Sure. That's also the, you know, the origination of our podcast here.
Ryan Creech 57:05 Yeah, yeah, right. And I think that. Have you guys done an episode about the parenting book?
Sam Moore 57:13 You know, Kimberly may have, but if she did, I was not a part of it.
Ryan Creech 57:16 I think it might have been an earlier episode, yeah. So basically the book explores parenting with disabilities, and each chapter was written by someone who is either a parent with disabilities, or there are a couple of very interesting chapters that are written from the perspective of the children of a parent with a disability. And sort of, you know, what the extra challenges are there, what the, you know, and how they've worked to overcome those. So we're the very last chapter in the book.
Sam Moore 57:51 Oh, you're the grand finale.
Ryan Creech 57:53 Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's kind of, it was kind of a full circle moment for me because my first real involvement as an advocate in Kentucky was at the second conference of the Kentucky Appalachian Rural Rehabilitation Network, the CARN conference. And I sat on a panel that was about parenting and like relationships and intimacy for people with spinal cord injuries. And I had gotten married just like three days before and had never had any like sexual relationship since I had had my spinal cord injury, had never had a child. You know, I had no, I had absolutely nothing to say. And so I sat on the panel and as they came around to me, I basically, I had absolutely nothing. I was like, "Hi, I'm Ryan and I'm brand new to this."
Sam Moore 58:48 I'm a newlywed.
Ryan Creech 58:50 Exactly. Yes, that was my entire experience that I brought to it. But yeah, so to be able to share kind of our story of what happened in the time since that panel was great. And it was good therapy for me to be able to include a chapter in the book. But yeah, so my wife and I kind of went through years. It took us nine years of basic, of different types of fertility treatments to be able to have, you know, attempting to have a family. It was so important to us and it was integral to everything that we did over those years. And so in the chapter, we talk about, you know, we had, I had fertility issues obviously due to my injury and my paralysis. And then as we got started, we found out very quickly that there were also fertility issues on her side. And so like most women who are diagnosed with infertility, she has what's called uncategorized or unspecified infertility. And that's so frustrating because basically it's an understudied area of medicine and we just don't have good science to explore what the problems are. And so when you're, when you're trying to conceive a child in that kind of environment, like you just, you just keep spitballing things, you know, you never know if you're going down the right track or, or whatever because there are not answers available. So we found a great Fertility Clinic in New York. We used CNY, which is a clinic up there. And we were able to do a couple of rounds of In Vitro Fertilization through them. And we were incredibly privileged to be able to not only support that financially. I mean, by the time that we finished, like concluded our journey up there, we had spent a grand total of $75,000 over the nine years.
Sam Moore 61:12 Not exactly available between most people's couch cushions.
Ryan Creech 61:15 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, twice, like I took, a month off to go and do all of the procedures and injections and monitoring. And, at one point we did an international trip, even trying to, trying to do, trying to conceive a kid. And so, yeah, the, I think the chapter does a really great job of, kind of airing all that out. And I wanted to give lots of detail on it. So someone who was just setting out on that journey would have, you know, a pragmatic, practical, like real life. This was our experience. And there were a whole lot of bumps in the road and a whole lot of wrong turns, a whole lot of struggle. But in the end, for us, anyway, it was a, we did have a positive outcome. So we do, you know, at the end of it, it does kind of come full circle and we were able to start a family. You know, after looking at IVF and various other fertility stuff and looking at private adoption, foster care and adoption, you know, so the chapter is very much worth reading.
Sam Moore 62:28 Yeah, a great source of hope, too, for others who are currently there.
Ryan Creech 62:33 Right, right, and that was the other, and that was kind of the point of of the book, too, is that we wanted to you know present like all of these stories and some of them were great outcomes some of them were stories of struggle some of them were stories of heartbreak but and in the whole point of the of the parenting book was to say like you know these are this is how you can look at parenting through the lens of the lived experiences of people with disabilities but like there's a whole lot of heartwarming moments and a whole lot of like just like family building and encouragement moments built into the book and and I think a lot of our contributors would would agree that even the ones who, you know, who were met like who didn't come to the the happy ending that they had hoped for were still able to to bring it and turn it into kind of a positive experience—
Sam Moore 63:34 Yeah, in some form or fashion.
Ryan Creech 63:38 —or hopeful or like teaching educational experience where they were able to help other people um through through the journeys
Sam Moore 63:44 In conclusion, Ryan, how might you suggest, back on the focus of your career at the moment, accessible digital media, how would you suggest that our listeners educate themselves further on this accessible digital media and the manner in which it could potentially enhance their lives?
Ryan Creech 64:10 Of course, yeah. Well, you know, the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, requires that any entity that's covered by the ADA, and also the same is true for any organization that is receiving like federal money or is kind of tied in with the Section 508 guidelines, like all those legal things. Anybody who is providing services has to make them accessible, right? And so that includes websites, that includes flyers, that includes social media posts, okay? So I think that as an entity that wants to put out accessible information, there's a lot you can do to educate yourself. And a great starting point is actually the Department of Homeland Security. It used to be their training office, but now it is called their customer experience office. And they have excellent resources on creating accessible documents like Microsoft Office. They also have a phenomenal training on, it's called their trusted tester for web training, but it kind of goes through all of those super in-depth parts of WCAG, and section 508, and how those get applied to websites and other types of documents to really understand what is and what isn't accessible. So that's a great tool to have for the, you know, kind of whoever's in charge of making sure things are accessible within your organization. As an end user, it's always super important to advocate for yourself, you know. So if you do come across something, if you're trying to access, say, government services or just access a business and you get to a portion of their web page and you can't read it with your screen reader, you can't access it using voice-over on your phone or whatever, it's important to reach out to those organizations. And say, hey, this is not accessible, and I'm not able to have the same access as a sighted person or as a person who doesn't have dyslexia because it's not accessible. You know, you can kind of help educate and kind of bring those folks in to—
Sam Moore 66:46 Open their eyes to potential issues.
Ryan Creech 66:49 Right, right, and also to get them to kind of adapt and accommodate the needs that you have, so yeah, I think it's important on both sides to just kind of know what's out there and educate and just kind of advocate for yourself and for your from a business standpoint advocate for the consumers and clients you have out there that might have a disability.
Sam Moore 67:12 Yeah, so if you're a consumer of this stuff, be sure to let them know, you know, the creators of this content if you're not able to. access it. And if you're the creator of the content, remember the Department of Homeland Security when you're seeking to maximize its accessibility for sure. And HDI, if you'd like to learn even more about them, the site is hdi.uky.edu. So we'll try to link that in the show notes as well.
Ryan Creech 67:45 Also, if anyone wants to reach out to me, you know, send an email, I'd be happy to discuss any of the stuff we've talked about today in the podcast or the chapter in the book or accessibility, you know, anything that I can help or advise on. Everyone's always, I'm happy for folks to email me. My work email address is ryan.creech, that's R-Y-A-N period C-R-E-E-C-H at U-K-Y dot E-D-U.
Sam Moore 68:18 Perfect. Easy enough. ryan.creech at uky.edu. He would love to hear from you. If nothing else, just reach out and tell him that you heard him on Demand and Disrupt, and I know that that would bring a smile to his face. Well, Ryan, thanks so much for coming on with us today. We've learned a lot and had a bunch of fun learning. I hope you've enjoyed it, sir.
Ryan Creech 68:45 I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to talk about doing what I love doing.
Sam Moore 68:49 Well, the only thing that's, you know, almost as rewarding as doing what you love doing is talking about it. So, you know, we're glad to allow you to do that. And it's great that you and your cohorts are, you know, doing your thing and being a tremendous service to a tremendous amount of people at HDI. So keep up the good work, sir, and we'll do it again.
Ryan Creech 69:17 All right. Great, Sam. I look forward to it.
Kimberly Parsley 69:24 Demand and Disrupt is a production of the Advocado Press with generous support from the Center for Accessible Living based in Louisville, Kentucky.
Kimberly Parsley 69:31 Our executive producers are me, Kimberly Parsley, and Dave Mathis.
Kimberly Parsley 69:35 Our sound engineer is Michael Parsley.
Kimberly Parsley 69:37 Thanks to Chris Ankin for the use of his song, Change.
Kimberly Parsley 69:40 Don't forget to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Kimberly Parsley 69:43 And please consider leaving a review.
Kimberly Parsley 69:45 You can find links to our email and social media in the show notes.
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Kimberly Parsley 69:52 Thanks, everyone.
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