Episode 79: Put the Brakes on Disability Parking for Pregnancy

You're listening to Demand and Disrupt, the podcast for information about accessibility, advocacy and all things disability.

Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast. I'm your host, Kimberly Parsley.

And I'm your co host, Sam Moore, coming to you from Henderson while Kimberly is in Bowling Green. And we're making a little history on this episode, folks, because, well, Kimberly's in the same city that she always is, but she's in a slightly different location on the same property because she has a brand new podcasting office space. Don't you, Kimberly?

I do. Michael built me a garage studio out in the garage. I've been using it as office space and that's been nice. But this is the actual first time that I have recorded a podcast episode in it, so I hope I sound good. I got a. I got a little podcasting boot. Oh, thank you. It's a podcasting booth. It's basically like egg crate mattresses in the shape of a cube.

I feel like I need to stick

my head in it.

I'm told I don't. Microphones in there. Ian tells me a lot of the. The Vtubers have this sort of setup.

So.

Yeah, I feel cool. I feel all cool.

Well, we want you to feel cool because

whether I am or not.

But hey, I didn't say you are cool. No, I'm kidding.

I know, but you left that.

Only kidding. Well, anyway, regardless of how cool we. We we are or not, we, it's important to feel that way.

But our guest today is absolutely cool. Her name is Dr. Kira A. She has been on before. I believe she might have been episode two. She is going to be talking about parking. And the. A few state legislatures have come out to say people who are pregnant can park in the disability parking spots. Which sounds reasonable. Sounds reasonable to me. Doesn't it you, Sam?

Yeah, generally, yeah, I'll tell you that. You know, and if, you know, it's funny, if I were to say, well, heck no, I'd have a bunch of people, I probably have a bunch of females writing in to me saying, well, Sam, you try being pregnant.

But exactly, exactly. But you know, there is more to

the story and I know she dropped some. Some big time research on us.

Oh, Kara is such a researcher. She really is. But yeah, she. She tells us what she thinks. Some of the motivations behind these bills are what legislatures could do to make actual improvements in maternal health and the impact that such policies have on parking for people who are disabled. And you know, some of those people who are disabled are also pregnant.

Sure, yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes you get both of them. They. They're disabled and pregnant.

So she comes on. I have a fascinating conversation with her where she breaks all that down for us. And, you know, Kara's one of those people. I walk away feeling smarter for having talked to her, so.

Well, that. That's one of those people that maybe I need to hang around a little more often myself.

Big, big week here. I don't mean to belabor the point, but I. I do have a graduating senior. Ian is graduating.

I know.

You know, he left for school yesterday, his last day of high school, and I. Bald like an absolute baby. Just.

Well, I tell you, he. We talked about it before we went on the air here, and he deserves a shout out because it's not every. It's not every year you get to graduate. And in fact, he told me his graduation is actually the very day after this happy little show comes out.

Yep, yep. We're coming out on. On Saturday. He graduates on Sunday, the 24th. Did make it through high school, the 4.0, so.

How about that? And he's. And he's going to be a Hilltopper, which we're both going to be.

A Hilltopper. Very exc.

No, you told me. Where is it? Is it. Is his graduation going to be in the Bowling Green High School gym?

It is, because they've got a big arena. You know, they got.

Okay, so they got plenty of room to spread out and all that.

I don't know if they got plenty of room.

I mean, there's gonna be a ton of people there.

Like, the. I'm gonna get there, like, two hours early.

Two hours early. You might just like, come straight from church.

Yeah, I'm gonna. Definite. Definitely. I'm gonna get there two hours early. And I bet you there' I don't know, there may already be people camping out. Who knows?

They might all be waiting for Ian to get there.

But,

you know, he. He may have a bunch of autograph requests waiting on him when he shows up. But. But anyway, yeah, it's. You know, some of you may be crammed in there like sardines, but it'll be well worth it.

We are. We. We are excited. We. We, you know, excited.

That. That's.

I can't really think past that. But now that it's here, I'm like, oh, wonder if I should have made some other summer plans. So, Sam, do you have any big plans for summer or things you do?

You know, I am doing a belated birthday celebration in Louisville. Not this weekend, but next weekend. And I'M mom and I are going up there and we're going to see some family. She's got a cousin that lives there and. And, well, several cousins, for that matter. But there's one and his wife that are going to come meet us and we're going to do a little lunch gathering in Powwow. And then I'm going to meet up with one of my. Actually, a couple of my former college friends from Western that live up there, and we're going to go to a Louisville Bats game. That would be Saturday night. So I've got that go. That's about the biggest summer plan that I have so far. And that's actually, I guess, more of a spring plan because it's the last weekend of May. But. But anyhow, here we are talking about.

Is it. Was it your birthday? Was it your birthday or your mom's birthday?

It was my birthday this past Tuesday.

Happy late birthday, Sam.

I appreciate that, Kimberly. And for those of you that, you know, meant to send me presents on that exact day or before, no worries. You can still send them. I. I gladly accept belated.

You don't mind them late?

No, drag out the birth. In fact, that's part of why we're doing this Louisville trip a week and a half later. You know, I'm all for dragging this party out as. As long as possible

there. I. I like it.

Yeah, I. I like.

I like how you think. Well, happy late birthday, Sam.

I appreciate that, Kimberly. You know what? I'm gonna. When I go to that Bats game, I'm hoping that if our man Dave Mathis is there, that he says hey to me, because I know that Dave Mathis from center of accessible living in Louisville, he attends Bats games on what seems like a pretty frequent basis. And so I'm hoping if he. If he sees me that. Well, he probably. He may or may not know what I look. He. He'll recognize my cane, though. He'll recognize my cane.

Your cane and your voice. Now, Dave is fully retired. He is retired from center for Accessible Living now.

Oh, now, gosh, how'd I miss that? I don't know how, but anyhow, still.

Still working because he still works all the time. Still works all the time. Still works for the Advocado press. So that's exciting.

Still heavily involved.

Heavily involved. Yeah.

But anyhow. Yeah, we. But we have heard about Dave attending a lot of Bass games. And, And I was thinking, you know, I think we were kind of both thinking before we went on the air here, wouldn't it be fun Kimberly, if. If you and I could do a Demand and Disrupt podcast episode from Louisville

Slugger Field, that would be great. That would be great. And I think Dave should make that

happen, I'm telling you. And we could do a slugger dog, which, you know, I've been to Slugger Field plenty of times. I've never had a slugger dog, but apparently what that is, Kimberly, it's a. A foot long dog with pretty much everything on it under the sun. And I probably don't want to know how messy it is or. Or how many calories it is, but. But I might have to splurge.

Was just about to say that. That sounds like a mess waiting to happen.

It's probably heartburn too.

Oh, I wouldn't even get that. I would end up wearing all this, the whole thing.

I mean, that's true. I probably would too. But you know, for a special, if we were to do the man and Disrupt episode, I might have to. I might have to get a slugger dog to celebrate the occasion.

So, of course we talked about recording an episode from a ballpark. And then Keith Ozzy, very. I don't know, let's say. I would say as sure he meant

well, but he didn't.

He meant to poke at me when he was at Wrigley Field seeing a Cubs game, so.

Oh, yes, yes, I. I got that too. I think we were both tagged in that post.

We were. I think he was being a turd. I love you, Keith. I think you were being a turd.

He was trying to rub it in because. Because, you know, you're a Cubs fan and, you know, even though I'm a Cardinals fan, I would still gladly go to Wrigley Field just for the history of the place. And. And maybe we could even do a Cards Cubs game at Busch Stadium sometime. That would be. And that would be closer and maybe a little more feasible, shall we say?

Listen, I am told that my daughter tells me that I promised her a trip to Chicago.

Oh, you promised Sarah a trip to Chi Town?

That. That's what I'm talking. I have no recollection of this. And as Ian says, I don't know that you promised it, but I feel like you might as well have given that she's not gonna let it go.

So it's stuck in her. It's stuck in her head now permanently.

She's living some sort of alternate reality wherein I promised.

And so, goodness, she's gonna keep telling you whether you actually promised that or not. She's gonna keep telling you. You Did.

Yeah, I think she's gonna have us convinced that. That maybe we did. So I don't think Michael's loving the idea of going to Chicago, but I

mean, he may not have a choice.

It feels like. It feels like no one has a choice.

Oh, me. Anyhow. Well, if you do, you'll. You'll have fun. And, and for one thing, you know, I know that all of the parsleys love their pizza and there are no. There, there is no shortage of pizza restaurants in Chicago. You'll have to.

None at all.

So yeah, go in there and eat that Chicago style thick crust pizza that they're so well known for.

That. And you told me about the place that now we're going to Memphis. So I know you told me about the, the places at the barbecue places

in Memphis and oh yeah, we talked

about Flynn's, didn't we? Did y have to go there?

And I believe we are going to try to get up to Louisville at some point, you know, baseball game or not. With our old pal Jerry Wheatley. Planning on just grabbing him and taking Lee up and. Yep. Picking him and Lee up on the way and going to Louisville and just hang out with the crowd.

Jerry's. Jerry's in Bardstown, right?

He is.

That's what I thought.

So, yeah, that's about halfway between you and Louisville, so that would be perfect.

Yeah.

So any other, any other of our disruptors out there who, who want us to get together?

We'll, we'll.

We'll have a big disruptor meetup. So how, how might they get in touch with me? Sam, if they want to do that, let us know.

I tell you, this email address is. Is so hard to remember, but. But I'm gonna go ahead and, and reel it off anyhow. It's demandanddisruptmail.com. how do we ever come up with that address? Kimberly?

There it is. That is how the fine folks can reach out. Tell me what you're doing, what you want to do, where you're at. I would, I would love to get.

Yeah. Questions, comments. We'll do ideas.

We welcome demand and disrupt on the road. We'll take the show on the road.

Yeah, we could do it. We could do it from different locations and you know, different restaurants and you know, we could, we can sort of mix the, the business with the pleasure.

We could, we could. We already talked about dragging you down here to Bowling Green, so.

Yes, we had that discussion off air and yes, that's in the works too.

So.

Lots of things. Some summer's going to be exciting, y'.

All.

I have.

I have good feelings.

Good. Ready to swim, Kimberly? It's funny. I love to swim, but I have not swam in. In several years now because I just. We don't have a pool and I don't have friends with pools. So, you know, and. And my Aunt Sandy and Uncle Charlie, who used to have a lake house, they used to have a trailer down at Lake Barkley. And we would go down there at least once or twice a summer to boat and swim and. And that sort of thing. But they sold that trailer, Kimberly. They sold that trailer. We can't go down there anymore.

Oh, no. I'm sorry.

It's just travesty. But.

But anyway, sorry.

I'll find a way to swim.

I don't go swimming very much either. Just when we're on vacations, honestly. You know, if we're on a vacation, I might go swimming, but other than that at home, I don't. I don't think I went last year at all either. So.

Yeah, I'm not the biggest. I'll just go ahead and say I'm not the biggest public pool fan because, you know, for one, especially on weekends, they're just crowded as I'll get out and, you know, you. You try to reach and pull and you end up yanking somebody's hair, and that's no fun. And then they're mad action. You know, it is.

You know, the accessibility of that is difficult, and that is why I don't go as well. It's the exact same thing when you.

I prefer a nice big lake or river where I can just put a life jacket on and there's plenty of water to go around.

Yeah.

Or like.

I mean, I don't mean to be

snobby, but like a resort where there's not going to be as much people, like you said, not as many people to grab hold of accidentally.

Yeah, we're not trying to be snobby here at all, folks.

Oh, no, we have like our.

We just like our space.

Yeah, we have a great public fool here in. We have a great public pool here in Bowling Green. But I, you know, I'm not familiar with it. It always seems too crowded for me to do any kind of orientation there. So I. I tend to be a little ins.

I used to like. I used to like ours Atkinson Pool in Henderson when I was growing up. And I. And I used to like the slide there, but, you know, it's. And plus it's gotten to. To where, you know, the lifeguards are most of the lifeguards are half my age now. You know, a lot of them are in high school or early college, and so if I feel like if I were to go to our local Atkinson pool, I would be like, twice the age of not only the lifeguards, but most of the swimmers.

Oh, I bet you would find that

there's a lot of people your age there. I mean, I bet you would find that would be true.

Maybe.

So now my kids want to go to be. We do have Beach Bend, so my kids will talk about Beach Bend, which. Which I don't understand is a beach in Bowling Green. And I don't really. I've never been, so. Have you been?

I can't. I can't say that I have. And I'm a little ashamed to admit that as much time as I spend in Bowling Green.

Well, now you gotta find somebody from Beach Bend to have on blabino bluegrass. So that's how I'm gonna know.

That's how we'll educate ourselves. Yeah, I'll do a beach Ben show. I mean, and then, you know, I'll. I'll make sure that you get your ears on that, and we'll. We'll both learn. But I love. You know, Kentucky Legend is a big deal. I'm not a big coaster guy, Kimberly, But. But Kentucky Legend is apparently a very popular roller coaster. Or the Kentucky Legend. Or maybe it's the Kentucky Rumbler, but it's at Beach Band.

Oh, is it? Oh, okay. See, I don't. Do.

I know Kentucky is in the name. I think it's the Kentucky.

I don't do roller coasters at all.

I really don't. I've done a few, and that was enough for me to know that I'm just not a coaster person.

I. I used to.

I mean, I don't.

I. I used to not mind them, but when you factor in, like, the vertigo that I'm prone to, I mean, I'm already like. I.

No, no, no. I'm.

I'm already probably spending half the time anyway. I don't want to add some roller coaster love into that. Just not gonna.

I don't blame you. Yeah. Who to talk to?

I don't have big vacation plans, but, you know, we are very spur of the moment people. I don't like to plan a lot and stuff, so we. You never know. We may just.

And sometimes plans don't work out, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But some of the harder you try to plan, the. The less likely things are to actually fall into place. So it's good to be spur of the moment.

I remember one time when we were planning our only trip to Disney World and we, we were like, you know, it's like eight weeks out we were planning it, which is like a huge planning for us. And the person we talked to was like, well, most people can't plan their trip about six months out. And I'm like, nah, good grief. Apparently, yeah, no, I, I'm like, this is why I don't go to a Disney World thing, because I don't know that I even have the capacity to plan that far in advance.

That, that's a lot of, that, that's a lot of advanced planning.

So it is more than I'm capable of.

Yeah. More than I am a lot of times too. I just try to plan ahead for what I have to. Otherwise just sort of, you know, fly by the seat of my pants. But, but anyway, yeah, there you go. It's, but whatever, whatever you're doing, just take, take the man to disrupt along and blabbing in the bluegrass and we'll try to keep you occupied and entertained.

Absolutely. And we're right here at Memorial Day, the unofficial beginning of summer. So happy summer, everyone.

Absolutely. Yes. Take an extra dip in the pool for me.

And I'm thrilled to start off summer with this just fascinating interview with Dr. Kara Ayers.

Enjoy.

So I have a Google alert and I track things of importance to the disability community, my fellow listeners, so you all don't have to. I bring you all the important stories and something came up and it was about accessible parking and pregnant, pregnant women getting to use disability accessible parking spaces. And I thought, well, yeah, I mean, I remember what pregnancy was like. Sure, that, that, that, that sounds fine to me. You know, that doesn't sound like something we need to fight. And spoiler alert, gang, I was wrong. And the person who informed me of how wrong I was is Kara Ayers. And she is on the show with, she wrote an article and she is here to talk to me about that. Hello, Cara, how are you?

Hello. I'm great. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited about this conversation.

I, I, I didn't even know this was a conversation that I needed to have and how wrong I was. So your article that I saw is a substack which anyone who doesn't know is a newsletter kind of newsletter publisher, sort of. Right?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think it's just a platform for people to publish their writings. Kind of reminds me of like the good old days with blogs, which I enjoyed.

Yes, yeah, it does. And so this was a, this was a substack newsletter that you had written and it's called Performative Policy Won't Save Maternal Health and it Breaks disability Access. So you're not mincing words right from the top.

Go ahead.

And please do inform me and everyone about how wrong I was thinking this was.

Okay, well, I think it's totally understandable, you know, when on first glance this is one of many policies that, you know, as you said, seems okay, but we have to think about unintentional consequences of policies. And unfortunately, many times people with disabilities bear the unintentional consequences of policies that don't include thinking about us and even better and more importantly, including us in the policy making process. So what this policy proposes is that women who are pregnant would go to their doctor. And, and so different states approach this a little bit differently. Some states like Illinois saying, say that during the third trimester, pregnant people can talk to their doctor and get a, an accessible parking placard. Other states like Florida have actually said at any point in pregnancy, so upon finding out you're pregnant with your doctor's office, you could leave that office that day with placard, you know, signed to, signed script for an accessible parking spot that you could take your dmv. And not only is this going to put thousands of more placards in people's cars, which we already know, there's a mismatch between the percentage of spots that have to be allocated according to the Americans with Disabilities act and the number of people that have these placards. And then you, you pile on top of that, the abuse of where many people park in the spots, whether they have a placard or not. So that really got me thinking more deeply about, wait a minute, does, does this really help? Or as I titled the article, is it more performative? Is it more intended to look as though we're helping pregnant people and we're supporting maternal health outcomes? And when we dig a little bit deeper, I think on both sides of the issue, we see that it's not doing what it proposes to do. So I think on the pregnancy side of the issue, there's a lot of variability in pregnancy. And the main point that I point out is that if a pregnant woman is experiencing health complications related to her pregnancy that are causing her kind of short term disability, it's difficult for her to walk, maybe she's short of breath, she, as it stands right now, can go to her doctor and get a short term disability accessible placard. So that we don't need a new law for that. That is, you know, right now, a reality. So this policy kind of makes it seem like that we're fixing a problem that that isn't there. And then, of course, the other side of the coin is also that we're adding a lot of people that would now have access to these spots that many of which don't necessarily need them, and they're then competing for the spots with those that do. So it's something you got to dig a little deeper on, I think. But it totally makes sense why, at first glance, it seems like a good idea.

Yeah. And the thing in. Thank you for making me not feel so stupid anymore. I appreciate that. The thing in your article that grabbed me most was when you said, and I was a pregnant mother. And I'm like, I was a pregnant disabled person. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, you know, we do exist because sometimes we forget, right, that. That. That those two things can exist at the same time. So tell me, as a disabled person and a wheelchair user, what that accessible parking space means. What?

Yeah, like.

Like physically, but also, like, to your life. But also, why? What is it? An accessible parking space? I guess let's start there.

Right? So accessible parking places. Yes. They're usually closer to the front door. And I think a lot of people misunderstand that. The main purpose is that convenience, when, for me, at least, there are a couple of things that are much more important than that. One being just the practical nature of. So I exit my vehicle out of this. I have a minivan. I exit out the side door. I actually don't have a lift or a ramp, but I still need enough room to drop my manual wheelchair down out of that door. And in most typically measured parking spots, I don't. I don't have room to do that. So I literally cannot get in or out of my vehicle without that additional space that the hash lines that you see between parking spots offer. So, you know, sometimes I have to make decisions like, gosh, here's a. Here's a spot that has the hash lines. I need them on my passenger side, for example, you know, on the driver's side, I'm either going to need to back into this or I'm going to. So, you know, or I'm going to need to find another spot. So there are just really practical reasons that people need spots in terms of they literally cannot get in and out of their vehicle. And then the second most important thing that is far above convenience to me is Just safety. So I'm only about, you know, between three and four foot tall in my wheelchair. And when people are backing up out of spots in parking lots, they don't expect to see someone my height. And it's. So it's really dangerous to move through a parking lot. You know, with especially, you know, when I, I think about, when I have my kids too, there's a bunch of us that are all about 4ft tall and that's like, you know, not. So if, if there were walkways that would connect further back spots to, I would actually, that's fine with me. So I'm just trying to reiterate that like the, the proximity to the front door is actually not at all top of my list. I'm not going to say it's not nice, especially when, you know, this time of year we're navigating some snow and so there's at least less, you know, sidewalk for me to navigate. But it's really the two things of literally being able to get in and out of my vehicle. And then also the, the safety issue, which is huge.

Right.

And then also, you know, disabled people do get out and go places.

Yes.

So what happens if you don't have parking? Because I'm sure that happens to you all the time. Right?

It happens. And I don't know if I've been cursed by this article or thinking more about it. I don't know. But I swear, you know, since, since it got cold here in Ohio, November, December, this year has been especially challenging and, and I really don't know, is this just coincidence? Am I noticing it more? You know, I'm a psychologist, so I tend to believe that we, we tend to notice things more when we're thinking about them and talking about them. So it's probably that. But there multiple times this winter where I've needed to drive around and drive around and circle. And what's so frustrating is that there are spots available when I'm doing that, but they're not spots I can access. And that's what's frustrating to me with these potential policy changes is that a pregnant person that does not have a health related complication related to their pregnancy could certainly pull into any of those open spots and go right in. You know, and many people who do get placards could also do the same thing. And I do see sometimes people doing that, you know, people that have a placard, but all the spots are full, but they easily zip into another spot and they can use that. And I still advocate for the need for people that maybe have transient disabilities, so. Meaning that maybe today their disability is such that they can't walk the distance, so they need that spot. Maybe tomorrow their symptoms aren't flaring and they're able to walk from a regular spot. I guess all I can hope is that we as human beings would make those decisions on our own. But I still very much advocate and support the need for people that may not look like me. So I guess what I don't want. I'm always thinking of unintentional consequences. What I don't want is to suggest that. I want people questioning somebody with a placard. Why do you need that spot? You don't look like you have a disability. You know, I don't. I don't support that. But. But I do empathize with the frustration because I've circled lots, and there have definitely been times if it's, you know, an errand or a shopping experience that absolutely don't have to do. I've left, you know, because I can't get in the front door safely. So. And that's. That's not fun and. And shouldn't be how our society is structured.

Yeah. Because the, you know, we have plenty of people policing those accessible. Accessible parking spaces. I mean, I, I have balance issues, and some days I, I am literally vertigo. Right.

I have vertigo.

So walking is just not a thing I can do easily. And if I'm out on a day like that, you can bet it's because I have to be. For whatever reason, I would choose to stay home, but I'm out. And so on those days, I will use the accessible parking space and I will, like, I. I go in. My husband pushes me in a manual wheelchair because walking is just not a thing that's gonna happen. And when we come back out, okay. And he pushes me out. I don't. The things people think, right.

So.

And I stand up out of the wheelchair to get into the car, and he folds the wheelchair up and puts it away. Oh, my gosh, the looks he said that people give, like, all around, everyone who's waiting for a parking spot is just given us the stink eye. Like I am perpetuating some horrific con on right on the driving public.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That is not helpful. It's so odd because you're right. We do have, like, all this social policing of these spots, but we have remarkably little actual policing law enforcement, I think. I mean, I never see people ticketed. I never really see law enforcement circling spots. I, you know, again, maybe I'm missing it, but it doesn't really seem like they're actually policed by law enforcement. Unfortunately, they're policed in ways that, you know, aren't helpful through people just looking at, glancing at somebody and making an assumption that they know. And that's. That's frustrating.

Or, I mean, I mean, sometimes it's worse. I mean, I've heard of people being, like, yelled at, like, yeah. Slanders and things used against people doing that.

And, and then about hateful notes that are left on the car. And I mean, that's. Nobody deserves that.

And. Because that kind of thing bleeds over into challenging every disabled person that you see, whether it's in a car, you know, a parking situation or not. And. Yeah, that's.

Yeah, I would imagine, you know, that would. That would probably be an unexpected result if, you know, I'm thinking of if someone who's two months pregnant, not visibly pregnant, you know, gets one of these placards with the. They're going to face that, too. I don't know if that would be worth it to them to have the spot. And I mean, to be clear, I think there. So there are some stores that, in my area that have a couple of spots reserved where it specifically says, like this spot reserved for pregnant people and mothers with young children, I think, is what it says or something. And that's great. Like, I think super. You know, especially, like, cater to your clientele. I think the stores that typically have that in our area are like, you know, Babies R Us and places where they know that. And I have no problem with places designating a few additional spaces for pregnant people. My, my issue is that it doesn't make sense that this is legislated in the same way that accessible parking currently is.

Yeah.

And so how is that being legislated? Is it at the state level? Is it at the federal level? What are we talking about?

Yeah, it's at a state level right now. And so we have two states, to my knowledge, that have already passed, Florida and Illinois. Florida's law was actually just challenged on the basis of ada. That initial challenge was thrown out just last month, actually January of 2026, but it was thrown out a little bit on a technicality. The case wasn't specific enough. So it still stands to. There's still a question of is, is this in alignment with ada, which is a federal law? And then we have several states, including Ohio, that are. That have pending legislation. Although I'm grateful that as it stands Right now, in February 2026, our Ohio Policy is on a kind of an indefinite pause. We've definitely let our legislators know, especially those that have co sponsored it. And I think they're in a bit of a. Wow, we didn't know, didn't know some of this. Which is exactly how you hope your legislators, you know, will respond and listen to their constituents. So as of right now, this bill is not moving forward in Ohio. Of course, that could change any day. So advocacy is still important.

And I do believe that if this law hasn't been introduced, then at least there are rumblings about it in South Carolina.

Yeah, South Carolina and, and a couple of other states. And it's sort of like this, rolling, you know, unfortunately, and I say unfortunately because this policy has, you know, the unintended consequences we've talked about. It sort of is a trend, you know, it takes off and it gets picked up by, by other states as well. And, and I think another unintended consequence that we haven't talked about yet is I think this sends a inaccurate message about typical pregnancy as well, indicating that, you know, for most pregnant people through most of their pregnancy, they would not be able to walk relatively short distances. I mean, most parking lots are not, you know, football fields. So I worry that we're sending this message that women during pregnancy are extremely frail and you know, and most of them have these health complications that would mean walking would be. And actually that's counter to most medical advice during typical pregnancy. And you know, as I've said, of course, if someone does have a health related complication, yes, we want them to have supports they need, including an accessible parking placard. But for most people who are pregnant, that's unnecessary, you know, and I think that's another unintended consequence is sending this idea that pregnant people are more frail and, and not able to kind of make their own choices and move about in the community as they are right now.

Right.

And those supports for people who are pregnant are already in place, which is like you mentioned, go to your doctor, get. And being able to get a placard, a temporary placard is something they can do. Now, does a temporary placard look different? Like, does it have an expiration date on it?

I'm not sure how. I don't think our law has, our bill has gotten into those specifics yet. I've wondered about that too. And I think there's different thoughts around, you know, how long after pregnancy is it still valid? I know like in Ohio, it's kind of strange in that I believe that the only Group that has a permanent disability placard are veterans that. And somehow their placard is different. But like myself, even though I'm, I was born with my disability and I will always have my disability, I still have to get mine, you know, reauthorized every, I think it's every five years. So yeah, that's another good question is would these placards look different? Would we be able to tell when they expired? Or is it another case of once you have one, you have one. And you know, we know that's also been a problem of unfortunately, family members using loved ones who have passed away, non disabled family members still using that placard, which just contributes again to the abuse in spaces and the shortage that we see because there's more placards out there than then there are spots unfortunately.

Now, and I know you're not an expert in this issue or not an expert in the ADA, but do you know what is the ADA's mandate on parking? Or is there one.

There is one and I want to say that it is 2% of spots need to be accessible, van accessible. I believe there are also specifications broken down like by how many spots you need with those, like, you know, the hash marks beside them, the loading zones kind of. And I think the ADA also specifies maybe slightly different for health centers. And maybe that's my wishful thinking, but I'm trying to remember if that's in 504, section 504, which is a law that prohibits discrimination in public sectors, settings like hospitals, those types of places. So I can't remember which law it is, but I want to say that there's a slightly increased number of spots that have to be for a healthcare setting which would, you know, make sense. But yeah, the num. The percentage of spots that are allocated is pretty low. And also, I mean when you think about when the ADA was originally written, 1990, our prevalence rates of disability have increased since then. Our population is older, we have more people aging in a disability and hopefully we have more people with disabilities out and about in the community. Meaning that, you know, we, we likely have more people with disabilities that need those spots than we did in 1990.

Right. So it's already, you know, over 30 years behind and now we're adding, adding more to what that that law needs to do. And I'm thinking you mentioned health centers and I'm thinking about, okay, the, the just the area clinic that I go to, houses like my doctor, my kids, pediatrician and also like the OB gyn. Well, if, if people are pregnant, can park in those accessible spots, then how is a person in a van, you know, who need. Who needs that extra space ever to find a parking space there?

Right.

It almost renders that facility completely inaccessible to a person in a wheel in a wheelchair.

Right.

Yeah. I mean, if you can't get in the front door, whether it be because the front door has steps, or the front or the parking lot is such that I could never get a spot that I can get out of my vehicle. And. Yeah. So I worry that it would drastically shift community access at large. So.

Yeah.

And I did pull up a quick stat for. For us. So According to the ADA, the percentages are. They average out to about 3%, but it depends a little bit on the number of spots in the parking lot. So, for example, if there's 100 spots in the parking lot, they only need four accessible spaces all the way up to. If there's more than 500 spots, they need 2%. So we're looking at, like, what is 2% of? I guess we're looking at 10. Is that right?

So.

Yeah. Which seems, you know, 10 spots out of 500 is not a lot, so.

Not a lot.

No, no, not a lot. Now, because you care about everyone as you do in your article, you also say, okay, if. If improved maternal health is what we're going for here, there are a few things that we can do.

Yeah.

And you talk about some of those, and I want to bring those up now because I think it is important to. To say if really you care about maternal health. I'm thrilled for that.

Let's.

These are how you can really help. So do you want me to read

off some of those?

Because I have the article. I didn't ask you to come fully prepared. Sure.

Yeah. Which ones would you like to talk about?

Yeah, well, Medicaid. So letting more people have access to Medicaid.

Yeah. And again, we got to be careful about those unintentional consequences. Right. So when we create more bureaucratic hoops to jump through, for example, when we reduce eligibility periods down to where we need people to fill out paperwork twice a year now instead of once a year, and all of that, unfortunately, results in people falling through the cracks. So. And we know that, you know, prenatal care and healthcare during pregnancy is so critical for not only the pregnant person, but the baby and really our society at large. So that's. Yeah, that's definitely something that could support better maternal health. That would be huge, I think.

And.

Yeah.

Yeah. And in your words, we have guaranteed parental Leave like every other developed nation does.

That would be great.

That would be good.

Yes.

One for the win. One for the win right there.

I wonder, like, why do policies like this pregnancy, accessible parking issue, like those types of policies, if it feels like, kind of catch on, like wildfire, but then why isn't the paid for to leave caught on? I don't. You know, we're really behind in that. Because it's easy. Because it's easy.

And like you said, it's. It's performative because it's not actually getting to the root of a problem. Because, let's face it, problem, real problems are hard to solve.

Definitely.

Yeah, they are. Because of, like you said, those unintended consequences and taking every voice into account, they take a while. They take it. They take time, money and expertise.

Yeah.

And this, solving, being a solution, in search of a problem is easy.

Right. Pretending like you're doing something right.

Right.

That's. That's easy.

Yeah, for sure.

And expand access to safe and affordable housing.

Gotta have places to live if we're pro family.

Yeah.

You know, this. These bills are also marketed kind of as like, pro family. And that's important, right.

Yeah. I recently had an episode titled Housing is Healthcare. So. Yeah, so that would, that would. I think not being homeless would certainly help maternal outcomes.

Yeah, I think so, definitely. And there are things, you know, concrete policy, things that we could do to support people to have housing. And I see a lot of overlap, and I'm sure you do as well with these recommendations too, related to people with disabilities, just recognizing that, again, there are also disabled pregnant people. So it's really unfortunate that this sort of debate, it's felt like, has sort of been pitting these two camps against each other when there are many of us that have been, you know, or are a part of both camps. But I just think about, you know, especially protecting reproductive health care. And that's especially important to people with disabilities who already have so many barriers in place to making decisions about building a family. And so, I mean, you know, when I'm thinking about what we could actually do to support maternal health, I'm thinking about people with and without disabilities, but it's hard not to notice that there's, you know, a heightened. A heightened experience of challenges, usually for people with disabilities.

Yeah. And you mentioned it's making us fight against each other, two groups who are already marginalized. And Kimberly Tiso is the CEO of Able South Carolina, and she wrote a newsletter, and the headline was we don't have to Play Parking Space. Hunger Games.

Yeah, exactly. Like, there's just no need.

No, no, there's. There's no need for us to. There is enough for everybody if everybody doesn't take more than their share.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

Just make good decisions, you know, and be thoughtful, and empathy, you know, goes a long way. And that's what I wish I saw lived out kind of more in the Hunger Games of parking lots.

Right, right. And you have been very involved with maternal health. This is an important issue to you. You were involved in the accessible Pregnancy Access plan.

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. I'm really excited about this tool now that it's, like, out in the wild. I developed it a few years ago, and then I had a chance to pilot it with some incredible pregnant people with disabilities, and now it's available. And so, I mean, it's. In its most basic sense, it's a birth plan, but it's much more than that because it's a birth plan that you complete with another disabled person who has been pregnant before.

And.

And the other thing that makes it really unique is that in addition to talking about what. What supports and accommodations you need and want during pregnancy, during labor and birth and then shortly after in the hospital, we also have those really hard discussions about stigma that many pregnant people with disabilities face, sometimes from their own families, about beliefs about whether people with disabilities should be parents or not. And so we have a chance to talk about that and, and reflect and support each other. And. And so the plan itself, you know, looks maybe like many birth plans do in terms of I need this at the hospital and I need the nurses to know this about me. But the kind of magic behind the plan is, is that relationship and connection and building it with another person. That's. That's been where you are at that moment.

And it's interesting. I've never thought about that. You know, a lot of birth plans will be things like, I need soothing music in the background turned up to volume, you know, four and no louder things like that.

But, yeah, I had to resist my own kind of cringe when I. When I started this process, I was like, oh, my gosh, I cannot call this a birth plan, because I'd always thought about that too. Like, I need green M&Ms. And, you know, and I think what was, like, even most insulting to me about that idea is that as a disabled woman who had. I had what was considered a high risk pregnancy, I actually got very few choices because, you know, everything was like, well, you know, no, your. Your husband can't be in the room with you because you'll be under anesthesia. And so, so I didn't have these kind of like fluffy decisions of who, you know, the three people that will be in the room for me. Or, I mean, and I'm not mocking that, that's wonderful if you have that. But so it really led me to think, okay, of the choices that I did have. How, you know, and also, what, what did I need? You know, what accommodations do you need? And I think it's really unfortunate when we just ask people that question without any help because many people are like, well, I don't know, I've never given birth before. Like, what's available? What would people even offer me? And so we don't start with just that blank question of what accommodations do you need. We start with, here's what many other women have benefited from. And, and that now knowing that what do you think might help you? And you know, and it's a whole process that we walk through. But yeah, I'm really excited about it getting out into the world.

And I will put a link to that in the show notes. Thank you. And I love this idea because I, I remember like even now, okay, every time I go to have like an MRI or any procedure, you know, any medical staff that you're dealing with, you are as a disabled person, educating them like real quick, 30 seconds about your body. Right. This is what it won't do. This is what it will do. This is why that thing that you want me to do is not going to happen.

Right.

I can't imagine doing that while being about to give birth. Yes.

Without a plan.

Without that plan, that is exactly what would happen. Right?

Yeah. And it's just really unfair as well because this is such a, you know, life altering moment that you should also, as a disabled person, just be able to enjoy that and not have to constantly be, you know, wearing that advocacy hat and, and worrying about your own safety in some cases and, or the safety of your baby. So it's, you know, it's not. Oh, it's not gonna, it's not a magic wand because we, you still run into people that best laid plans. Right. That they're informed, you know, they're educated and they still choose. But, but I find that the majority of people that you'll encounter with a little bit of education and knowledge, they, they'll do better. They know better, they do better.

Yep, Yep. And that's what we want with this. That's why I want to shed light on this parking situation.

Right.

Maybe. Maybe legislators will see better and do better.

I hope so. Yeah. There's lots of options to do that. And I think many constituents like you and I would love to work alongside with them and in doing so and kind of make those intentions more true to form. Right. And play out in their impact.

Absolutely. Kara Ayers, it's always enlightening to talk with you. I love it so much.

Me too. Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining us here on Demand and Disruption.

Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks.

Demand and Disrupt is a production of the Advocado Press with generous support from the center for Accessible Living, based in Louisville, Kentucky. Our executive producers are me, Kimberly Parsley and Dave Mathis. Our sound engineer is Michael Parsley. Thanks to Chris Ankin for the use of his song Change.

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We both know there's a difference We've had our curtain call and this time the writing's on the wall. This war of words we can defend. Two damaged hearts refuse to mend

judge

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