Episode 86: Horse Girls Brings Disability Representation to the Big Screen

You're listening to Demand and Disrupt, the podcast for information about accessibility, advocacy, and all things disability. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests. Any content provided by our guests is their opinion and is not intended to malign any group, organization, company, or individual.

Welcome to Demand and Disrupt, a disability podcast. I am your host, Kimberly Parsley, and I am Flying solo today, doing this all by myself without the incomparable Sam Moore. So I'm sorry, but listeners, you won't be able to hear all of the very highbrow content and conversation that Sam and I bring to you. So it's just me today, but you are in for a treat because I have an amazing interview for you today. I'm interviewing Lillian Carrier and Matthew Schwab, and they are actors in a major film called Horse Girls, and they are disabled actors playing disabled roles. It is about the— the film is about a young girl named Margarita who is— she lives with autism and her struggle toward independence, and she She starts that journey with discovering something called hobby horse. It's like you know the the sticks that with the horse's head on top, on the end, and she like a dance slash gymnastics routine. Apparently, this is a real thing. Lillian in the interview tells us all about it. It was fascinating, and I just hope I was able to do. These 2 people justice, uh, with the questions I asked because they were both fascinating, interesting. Just, I could have talked to them all day. It really is wonderful. The, the movie Horse Girls opened back in the summer, which is when I recorded this, uh, this interview. It opened back in the summer and opened in select theaters, and I'm not sure where you can find it now. I assume it will release on either a streaming service or for DVD. At the time I talked to Lillian, I think she wasn't quite sure exactly how that was going to work out. So by now here in October, you should be able to find that movie, and I think you should give it a watch because I can't wait. I've been looking for it, and I'm just so excited for it because it looks so, so good. Amazing. It does have audio description for those of us who are visually impaired. So yeah, I'm very excited about it. So, uh, something else to tell you, we are, uh, going to go on a bit of a hiatus with Demand and Disrupt. I'm not sure exactly what is next for the podcast, just, uh, stay subscribed to that feed. But I also want you to search for Kimberly Parsley, uh, every now and then, and you will find me doing other podcast things. I've got Several things in the works. Not sure where I will land. Even looking into doing a newsletter, some other stuff. Still, I'm devoted to disability justice, social justice, disability advocacy, all of those things. So definitely keep a watch out for me, and through looking for Kimberly Parsley, you will be able to find the other things that I am involved in. And I hope you will enjoy those. And, you know, feel free to reach out anytime. Always, you can send an email to [email protected], and that will find its way to me. And I want to know, what, what do you want to hear from people who are using their voice for disability justice? What do you want to hear? What kinds of things do you want to see in production? So, yeah, wonderful, wonderful things coming up, I promise. The first of which is this interview with Lillian Carrier and Matthew Schwab, disabled actors in disabled roles. So I mean, this is kind of a high watermark, y'all. We wanted to see disabled actors performing in movies, performing disabled roles. So, um, yeah, this is— I think it's a big deal. I hope you all enjoy this interview. Thanks everyone, enjoy. I am thrilled today to be joined by Lillian Carrier and Matthew Schwab, and they are in the new film Horse Girls, which opened in July, and it has been getting an amazing reception. And I just could not be more thrilled to talk with them. Lillian, Matthew, welcome. Thank you. Welcome to Demand and Disrupt.

Thank you so much for having us. Yeah.

And thank you very much.

So I want just both of you to tell me about the movie. I've just seen— I haven't gotten to see it yet. I've just seen trailers of it, and I cried at the trailer. So go on and tell me about this film.

So this film, it's about an autistic young woman who's really figuring out her place in the world. Her mom wants her to get a job and follow like the normal sequence of becoming an adult, and she doesn't think that's the right path for her. And she ends up discovering hobby horsing. And her mom goes through experiencing the diagnosis of cancer, and that changes their whole world into like, what does this mean now when you have a disabled daughter that relies on you for support? and you can no longer give that because you're going through your own diagnosis. And I think it's a beautiful story about, you know, being a full-fledged adult with others supporting you. And I think in society that is so often looked down upon, and there's so much internalized ableism and the outside world judging the way disabled people live with support and not treating us As full-fledged adults, I know especially in the autism and Down syndrome community, there's so much infantilization. So to have a story like this that talks about adulthood and what independence can look like for someone like us, it's— I was so honored. And I think the story is so beautiful and incredible. And I'm excited for the world to embrace it. And they have really well.

And where my character— In the movie, I played the role of Felix. And so where my character fits in the movie is where Lillian's character Margarita has a job at a Halloween store and she meets Felix. And at first, only developed a professional Relationship well don't work, and then as you see the movie play out, then you will see there's something more in in that relationship starts becoming more less professional, more on a personal level to the point of being bestest of friends. Even though she kind of has friends through the hub. Her hobby of hobby horsing, but her those friends are more of her perceived friends using her. And so my character Felix is in in that point of the movie is is Margarita's first true friend in in in in the movie and. I think this is where Lillian and I can banter and have a great chemistry together. We both have a— we both have— we both are adults. We're both in the film industry. We're living our lives to the fullest. We have a disability. Like, she has autism. I have Down syndrome, which is not far off from Down syndrome. autism, and we love being productive in our communities. We just love adulting because adulting is our favorite thing to do.

I

don't

know if I call it my favorite thing, but we're both very capable adults, right?

Adults. And when I first got onto set on the movie, the Few years ago when we filmed in Portland, Oregon, as soon as I met Lillian, I was unsure. First, I was just unsure because I had no exposure to the film industry. I only had exposure to the other kind of acting, which is technical theater and regular theater, which is community theater for years since I was young. So this part was new for me. So, and then I met this fine young woman, Lillian Carrier, and then from there it's like, oh my God, I freaking love Lillian because she's so nice, she's so wonderful, and she has a disability so she can truly understand me. And this is where Chloe Estelle actually comes into play because she is the autism coordinator for Lillian. She's been working with Lillian on a few other projects as well, but she has worked with me in a sense because she knows that Down syndrome, since it's the same type of disability— it's not the same disability as autism, but the same type of disability.

Developmental disability. So we have a lot of things that cross over. Yeah.

Yeah. And I like— I will link to the trailer of the film in the show notes. But it does seem like both of the characters in it are so wonderful and so adorable, but yet, you can see that that infantilization is being pushed back against, even in the trailer of the movie. And I just really love that.

And I do want to mention, because you mentioned you were blind, that we do have audio description available for those who want to see it in theaters and the theater might not offer it. We are on the All for Access app. So if you, as a blind community, I know having access isn't always a thing. We did work on trying to make it as accessible for as many disabilities as possible.

Awesome. I love that so, so much. You know, in, in the, in the description of the film, it's— is it called hobby horsing? Is that right?

Hobby horsing?

Hobby horsing. I did not have a clue what that was. I literally had to ask my husband, who's sighted, what are we talking about here? And, and he told me. So again, I'll have the link to the trailer in the show notes. But so can one of you describe to me, to our audience, what that is?

Yes.

Hobby horsing is like— if for a— make it easy for a normal person to understand what hobby horsing is, it's like that sport in Harry Potter, kind of Quidditch. It's— there's no flying on a broomstick, there's a horse attached to the head, and it's more of a choreographed dance in a gymnasium with other kids with— and their respective team coaches, and they compete kind of like the Special Olympics and the Olympics combined, and it's basically just like that.

Yeah, it's a competitive sport which they are trying to get into the Olympics, like, and legitimize it, but it's based on like the childhood toy. If you've ever had or remember other people having the toy horse that's like a stick, you pretend to ride a horse and it has a little horse head on it. They use that, and then they sort of like are the horse. And as a person, they jump over the obstacles and they do all of the dressage and the things that you would see at normal horse competitions, but it's people on horse sticks. And like, the athleticism, while it seems silly, is like— there's genuine skill and amazing talent in this. When I watched the real girls do this stuff, um, videos and stuff. Like, they're incredible, and this is a real sport, but there is a whimsiness to it that I really, I really like, and it's so fun. And yeah, it was just— I think in a movie atmosphere, it's such a cool visual and like adds this fun side to someone. And then you see a different side, especially with disability, that like when you're not capable or you're not accepted in the mainstream area, as like a lot of disabled people have to adapt things. Her joining hobby horsing instead of horseback riding due to her experience of disability was such a fun thing to explore, and I think that like shows in other atmospheres of our lives that that's very common for us in the disabled community to have to find our own adaptations.

So did you, did you learn like the dancing and the gymnastics and things involved?

Oh, so we— I didn't like go deep into it. It's like she's very much a beginner, which I really liked about that. This isn't like The Karate Kid, where in 2 weeks she becomes the best hobby horsing in the world, right? That's just even for someone non-disabled, that is not the most realistic story. And I liked that this story was like, it was all about being included and they just wanted a chance to compete and that was all it was. And I feel like that so often, especially in the disability community, is our struggle. It's like, just let me be included. I don't care if I get last place. I don't care if I don't even am considered part of the race, but I get to be included in the race. in the competition. I think that is a beautiful story to just be like, she became a part of the team, and because she's part of the team, they got to compete. And yeah, so wonderful. Yeah, I didn't have to do much training, and I'm very grateful for that.

One interesting part about our project, our movie Horse Girls, is that the plot is actually loosely based off of a true story of 2 people, Marguerite Breeden, which is the real-life inspiration of Margarita in our movie, and the main writer of our movie, Mackenzie Breeden, both sisters. And Marguerite has a disability, and they had a mom who was diagnosed with cancer, which unfortunately a few years ago she— her name's Sandy. That's how we got the name Sandy in our movie. In the real life, Sandy unfortunately passed away in the halfway point of us filming the movie. So it's been a heavy emotional project and movie for a lot of our crew.

I bet. Uh, now, uh, Matthew, you said that you play Felix. Lillian, you play Margarita, correct?

Yes.

And Felix, one of the things I read said you deliver the funniest line in the film. So kudos to you. And I heard this— I read this film described as a dramedy, like a drama comedy. And I wonder if either of— either or both of you find that comedy is one of the tools you have to use kind of to disarm people or to be taken seriously?

Yes. Yes, definitely, because our movie hits a lot of heavy and serious concepts like adulting, going through a life with a single parent having cancer, also while stabilizing Their own individual life with a diagnosis and growing autonomy and independence. That is a lot of heavy, heavy things for a 22-year-old to go through because a normal 22-year-old would probably just already be autonomous and independent. But in our movie and in real life for individuals with disabilities, it's not just that. There's The overdependence on their parents and their diagnosis. So sometimes when we have a diagnosis, it can feel like a burden. The reason why it does not feel like a burden for me and Lillian is because we embrace our diagnosis to the fullest. We embrace who we are.

Yeah, I think definitely throughout my life I've used Comedy both as like a tool to be able to manage and deal with my situations, as well as a way to combat when discussing diagnoses and struggles not getting that that sympathetic oh that's so awful like you just I don't want to be pitied all the time sometimes like I need sympathy and like but most of the time I want someone to move past it and just like give me the supports I need and make it. easier on my life. I don't need that, like, just going, oh, that sucks, uh, that— just like diving into that. So yeah, comedy is, I think— and Matthew is definitely so funny and he uses a lot of comedy. I don't know if it's specifically a tool, but he just like loves to be silly and goofy. But we have talked a lot and I feel like the, the dark humor is very prominent in the disability community. Because like, especially like I talk about a lot when I tell my story of having a lot of my childhood stuck in a hospital and thinking I was gonna die at 10 years old, like that I feel like just puts it just a different mood in the conversation. But like when I throw in some comedy about, you know, you know, I might be a vampire, I lived longer than I was supposed to, came back from the dead, Like, it just, it diffuses the situation in a different way that, like, lets people ask questions and feel more comfortable than just, like, feeling that emotion and not knowing how to respond.

Right. I agree. So, Lillian, how did you get involved with this project?

So this was a normal route of they reached out to my manager who got me the audition and Seeing this script in this industry, representation for disability and specifically autism is what I see, 'cause that's what I audition for most often. It's a lot of the time I'm like, okay, I'll accept the role and like, I'll go for it. But like, the representation is meh. Like, we're slowly moving in the right direction, but most of the time I just feel like it's, it's so much inspiration porn and like going, oh, this poor person type of energy, or they're like, she's gonna overcome this disability, oh my gosh, how incredible is that? Like, it's— this story just wasn't that. This was such beautiful representation, and it's marketed a lot as an autism story, but I wouldn't call it an autism story. I think it's— autism is woven in, disability is woven so beautifully in the story, but it's one of the stories that If you wanted to remove the disability and the autism, it is still a story that's good enough to tell, right? Any— anyone could have been this character, which I think is so important to move to that step of disability representation that it doesn't have to be about disability. You can just tell a fun, silly story and include a disabled character anywhere in there because we are just normal people. living our lives. And to me, that, that was the beauty in this story, that it felt so real and authentic. And so I— yeah, it's one I really wanted. And because it's like the community is so amazing and so small and we're all fighting so hard to get into the industry, um, I— like, all of my friends, everyone I knew who was autistic had auditioned for this, and we were all calling each other finding out, and we all knew a bunch of us were in the last round together and just sitting there going, oh, I'm so excited. One of us is gonna get this. It's gonna be the coolest journey ever. And I'm so grateful for that side because it felt like such love when I did get the part. And I, yeah, I love the community and I'm so excited that it's finally out and people get to see this.

And the authentic disability representation, it's important to us Here at Demand and Disrupt, we have talked about that before. So, Matthew, I'll ask you kind of the same question. Do you feel like that idea is finally breaking through? Like that someone, a non-autistic character or a non-autistic actress wasn't considered for, for the Margarita role? What are your thoughts on that?

Yes, I was told that they were looking for an autistic actress for the role. And if they didn't find it, the movie was not going to be made.

That's awesome.

So I'll start there. I don't know if Matthew, if you were told anything similar.

I was kept completely oblivious. The way I got into the project was that at that time I had only been in the film industry for about like a year, including the process, like doing acting lessons in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I did a commercial for Tupperware. TurboTax for a couple years ago for one of their commercials during the March Madness. And I loved it. And then unbeknownst to me, they found me on social media. And my mom manages all my stuff, or co-manages all my stuff. So she said, hey, Michelle Schwab is my mom. She says, hey, there's this cool opportunity To do a movie, I was very apprehensive at first because I was like, "Nope, nope, nope." Because I didn't. I never actually wanted to get into the film industry. I just thought it'd be something cool that let me fantasizing over. But but not. And then when when mom forcefully warmed me up into into it, I was like, "All right, let me give it a try." And then I. I did give it a try, and ever since then, I loved my experience on Horse Girls. And unbeknownst to me, I was told that they casted— they scouted 20 other people to play the role of Felix, and then I was the one to get the role, which— Ouch. gobsmacked me in the face because I never thought I'd be in a movie. I only dreamed about it as something fun to dream about, but nothing like this. And then with the movie being out, it's like, oh my God, I never thought I'd be on the other end of this.

Well, congratulations.

Thank you.

Both of you have been involved in various types of disability advocacy work. And I think any success in a profession almost always begins with advocacy because we have to do so much educating of the public or potential employers. Can you tell me what that journey has looked like for you? Matthew, we'll start with you.

All right. So Where I used to live, I currently live in Chapel Hill, but before I moved to Chapel Hill, I was living in the immediate Raleigh area, which is Cary, Apex, Holly Springs, that area. And there was a— no, there was a severe lack of opportunities in the disability community. And also, I had neighbors that lived on the same street as me in Holly Springs and my brothers, so I'll do a lot of stuff with them. But I have this group of friends that are about the same age as me and my fiancée, and both of them have Down syndrome, but they're more busier than me and Lucia combined because they're more reliant on their parents. And so this is that kind of thing. And so, but since I moved, I started to become independent in like, I think 2022. When I first lived on my own. with my middle brother in Apex. Ever since then, I've been living my life. Barely over a year and a half ago, I moved to Southern Village, which is a neighborhood in Chapel Hill and right near UNC campus, and it's awesome. And we have a very, very, very active disability community. In population, like, like I have friends with autism that are much taller than me, which Lucia, my almost wife, and my almost mother-in-law cultivated over the years because they have been living in Chapel Hill. And I would come to Chapel Hill only once a month as her boyfriend, so I was already familiar with the area but not to the sense, not like a resident would be, but something like, oh cool. And then Lucia introduced me to Special Olympics Orange County, which I am heavily involved in now. And an occupational therapist run and created organization called B3. And it's awesome. I met tons of people that are either around my age or have a disability. And my fiancée and her mom created a subset of that group, which is the 12+ friends that I was talking about. Most of them live in the same condo complex as me and Lucia. And this is— And we do lots of stuff like, We, we hang out, we have fun, we have a movie theater walking distance, we have restaurants in walking distance and jobs that we can walk to. And our community is very strong and heavily believe in community. There's a lot of community events and functions in our area.

Congratulations on your— what is it, in September? Is that when the wedding's going to be?

Yes, September 26th of this year. So next month.

Wow. Well, congratulations on that. Is it going to be a big wedding?

Well, kind of medium.

Awesome. That sounds great. And so, Lillian, what do you have an answer to the same question? Do you feel like you have to do that, that kind of public education before any new things, kind of?

So, yes, definitely, for a lot of things, especially going— so I was diagnosed with autism at 16, but I was like heavily disabled since I was like 9, 10 years old. And that transition to adulthood especially, it was so hard to find services and support in my area that like everyone wants to support and help children, but They forget about the adults, and it's not as cute and fun to support adults. So the money is really hard to come across when I talk to people who do run nonprofits and stuff. So it felt like a huge thing to, like, really have to advocate for. And especially within the autism community, it's so many programs you have to fit in this specific box and it's not tailored to how my experience of autism is. And I was really, really struggling to find something that worked for me. So it became like a full-time gig of me like really searching and advocating and finding those sort of services in my life. And I ended up like creating this program with my family and my sister that supported us really well. And people kept asking, like, what are you doing? Because you're not using any of the programs. And like, it's— you seem to be thriving and doing well. And that sort of turned in my advocacy of like speaking out of the ways I am supporting myself and how I'm managing to do it, which turned into a sort of nonprofit-esque thing. And then I was so lucky enough to get the audition for Everything's Gonna Be Okay. And I booked that TV show, which elevated my platform significantly to be able to make that advocacy. But yeah, in this industry, I, like, constant advocacy, constant having to, like, figure out, like, what works. And there's so much, like, going into things where they've never met an autistic person before and they don't know how to accommodate. And, like, I feel like I have to be an expert expert on autism, and I have done, like, so much research on it so I could just get my needs met, which I have leaned a little away from, of, like, just, like, sharing that with the world because it became, like, it's emotionally draining. Like, you're doing a podcast like this, I feel like, does it drain you too sometimes that you're, like, just seeing a lot of, like, the negativity stuff? Like, This making a movie is like such a positive side of it to actually like it came out and happened. But like I feel like getting through it and advocating for every step of the way for this stuff to be made is a slog of like, do they actually want to hear my story? Do they actually care about the representation? And like really fighting hard throughout the process until it like gets to a place like you find these specific people who wanted to tell Horse Girl so badly. that they were willing to put money aside and really put their heart and soul into the art of creating this story, which was so beautiful to finally find. But yeah, it feels like constantly advocating.

Yeah, the advocacy fatigue is so real. And I mean, creative work is kind of emotionally exhausting anyway. So yeah, I mean, it's a lot. It's, it's an awful lot.

And on top of that, like, not having representation puts so much worth on one representation that I feel if, like, there were a million stories of autism and disability, I wouldn't have had to put so much effort in. But every single second of the screen time and the things we put in, like, I was panicking and I was advocating. I was like, dude, don't do this, show this, because I don't want to be you know, the only way, like recreate a Rain Man, recreate music. I want to do something that's like, we're going to see something that is how autism is supposed to be seen because the representation is so little and people take away things from it that like, oh, that was just a creative choice. But like, if you've never seen autism, you're going to believe that that's what autism is. Right.

Right. It's what is the saying? If you've met one person with a disability, you have met one person with a disability. And yet, it's, it's always, we are the ambassadors for all of us, right?

Yeah, that I like, as much as like, I love that Margarita exists. She's not the face of autism. She's just one autistic character that exists. So please make more, make them different. Don't recreate Margarita in every movie and every TV show. Right. But like, I think that nothing about us without us. stuff, right? Including me, including Matthew, including Chloe, including Marguerite, including, um, Zelma. Like, all of the people, including Alex Plank, our producer who's autistic. Like, including all these people to tell this story who live the experience of the story, like, is going to give such better outcome.

Absolutely. So let's talk reasonable accommodations. Were there any specific changes or adjustments that had to be made in order to meet the two of you, your unique access needs?

So, coming on board, again, the thing I really fought for was to have an advocate on set. And we ended up with Chloe Estelle, who was autism sensitivity coordinator, incredible person. They brought on Alex Plank, an autistic producer who was then able to have that seat of power and be able to fight for things for me. So a lot of stuff was put in place by them that I wasn't even aware of. They told some things to me afterward, but a lot of the stuff, like, I had people who were disabled who knew my needs well enough to be able to preemptively do that stuff. But yeah, there were definitely some things that I was like, So they had a specific sensory profile for Margarita, which was based on Marguerite, and then some stuff that they wanted to, like, exaggerate and make part of her character, and it wasn't my specific needs. So things like having an underlayer of clothes that meet my sensory needs, so when I'm wearing the costuming and exploring her sensory stuff that might be overstimulating, For me was really helpful and they were able to accommodate. Sometimes it was tricky because she was wearing like the tiny shorts and stuff, but yeah, they did make that happen. They definitely accommodated. We both have slow processing and there was stuff that were like, we need this fast, fast, fast, fast, and we were like, we're not capable of going fast, so we need that little extra time to process. I know there was definitely a scene that they wanted between me, Matthew, and Iqbal to go like super, super fast, and the 3 of us were like, we're going as fast as we can. I think you have to do some editing magic here to get it the speed you want it. But I think it also added stuff to it because when they came across, oh, this is as fast as you can go, well, maybe we'll have to adapt because that would be as fast as your characters can go. process information, right?

Right.

So with the authenticity there, and yeah, there was a lot of accommodating sensory stuff for me, and then scheduling and planning and communication. Like, we both had people who helped make sure communication was effective and efficient for us because sometimes, like, we miss information. So that was always helpful, and they were very, very forgiving, very helpful in, like, making sure that no one was upset with anyone when miscommunication stuff happened.

Matthew, what about you? Any adjustments that had to be made?

I think my adjustments were not very obvious, at least on my end, because I embraced my diagnosis like it's— I embraced my diagnosis as part of my norm. normal life. And, but I do think there's probably some technical stuff that needs to be put in place, like what Leeloo said with her diagnosis. Like, there are some things that are very similar to my diagnosis, like slower processing times.

Well, you want to talk about your shoes? You had the coolest shoes, and that was brought on from your disability, right?

Oh yes. So So there's a company called Billy Shoes, which is, which I still benefit to this day. It's for people with severe mobility issues, but I don't have severe mobility issues. I just have low muscle tone as part of my Down syndrome. Part of that is my feet pronating, my ankles pronating. Mm-hmm. Inward. Inward. So, and then Billy's shoes is like these shoes where you just zip up, put your foot, slide your foot in, zip it on, zip it closed, then unzip it to open, which is easily accessible. For me, it's just bad because because I have orthotics on my feet, and I was able to manage with regular shoes with a shoehorn, but that would take like one or a couple extra minutes. Whereas with these Billy shoes, the only thing that takes me longer is the orthotics part, but not the shoe part anymore, which I love that. And there's one scene which ends up being cut from the movie where it's just One of my lines is commenting about my shoes. And because in the movie— well, not in the movie, but—

In the script.

Yeah, but in the script, yes. My character Felix loves superheroes. So the crew got the red Billy shoes and painted all these like sound effects superhero type of things on there. But I actually Oh, that's awesome.

That is awesome. And Matthew, you are a TEDx speaker, correct?

Correct. I actually have a business that ties with that. It's called Matthew Schwab Speaks, where I started it in October of 2019 to help change the way the world sees Down syndrome. And I love talking to people and, and I, and I use that platform to spread, spread my message. I've done it locally across my home state of North Carolina, nationally, and I just started my international branch of my business a few months ago when I went to Trinidad and Tobago. And I love doing that.

Awesome. And I will link to your talk in the show notes because it is, it is wonderful. It is powerful. It's also funny.

Oh, thank you.

You are welcome. It was, uh, really, really great. And, uh, so you, you both seem very, very busy.

Um, yes, we, we both have extremely busy schedules. I don't know how we keep up with it. We're always doing something. We always say, whenever I text Matthew, what are you up to? Like, and so many things.

Yeah.

And so tell me, Lillian, you mentioned one other of your credits. What are your other credits and where can people find them if they want to watch more of, uh, you and your work?

Yeah, so my biggest role was Everything's Gonna Be Okay where I played Drea, and then I was most well known for my episode on NCIS: New Orleans as Rachel. which was a— is a big fan favorite, and there's reruns of that one all the time. And I got to groundbreak into being a neurotypical on the show as we see it, and I played a little ableist asshole, and that was so fun. Which I think is also a great thing to do, to actually hire a disabled person to play the ableist role, because we don't have to play disabled. Some of us, you can't see our disability, and we're willing to go there. We can hit it so much harder because we've experienced it. And oh, I had so much fun doing that. So yeah, and then follow me on social media. My most active is Instagram, and it's just my name. Yeah, and please check us out in theaters.

Wonderful. And Matthew, where can people find you?

So my biggest contribution is my public speaking business, Matthew Schwab Speaks. So you can visit my website at mattthewschwabspeaks.com if you want to book me for a speaking engagement. And also my social media is on there, just like Lillian. I am very active on Instagram. It's just my business name, Matthew Schwab Speaks. And I'm also one of the founding members and part of the board of management for GEG's Playhouse Raleigh, which is a Down syndrome achievement center. So it's gegsplayhouse.org/raleigh. And I'm both a board member on the board of directors and the chair of public policy. Thank you. And advocacy for first-gen families of North Carolina. And, and if you guys are very local here and in Chapel Hill or the Raleigh area, you'll see me working at Town Hall Grill right here in Southern Village in Chapel Hill. You will see my, my, my, my almost wife Lucia at Weaver Street Market and/or the Purple Bowl. And she can, and she praises a lot good about me, so.

Wonderful. So what's next for each of you?

Wait and see. I don't know specifically. I know I'm working with Spectrum Laboratory and they want to do a proof of concept of having a movie that's made by as many autistic people involved as possible. It's currently called Caverns and Chimeras. I'm attached to that and we're looking for funding. as like one of those things to show that autistic people can make stuff and should be hired. As I said, like the disability community, our employment rate is dismal. And in the autism community specifically, it's like at 90% unemployed. And those are specifically people looking for employment. So having a proof of concept, if we can make it happen to have a movie that shows autistic people made this, so please hire us on projects. We are capable. I feel we'll make a huge difference in the world. So that is something I am really pushing toward being created. But, uh, please hire me. Yeah, please send me an audition and put me in your project because I have nothing like currently in the works, but I'm hoping and the auditions are slowly coming through. So.

Wonderful. I'm sure they will. I'm sure they will. Matthew, what about you?

Please send any auditions coming my way because I might keep pursuing in the film industry. But currently my non-film industry projects is, is keep pursuing my public speaking business, Matthew Swartz Speaks. Still keep working at Towel Grill. And but my biggest goal, my biggest, biggest project is on September 26th, which is my marriage to Lucia Romano.

Congratulations, Matthew. And congratulations to both of you on the— so far, it looks awfully successful run of Horse Girls. And I will link to that in the trailer. So thank you both very much. Best of luck.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Demand and Disrupt is a production of the Advocato Press. Our executive producers are me, Kimberly Parsley, and Dave Mathis. Our sound engineer is Michael Parsley. Thanks to Chris Ankin for the use of his song Change. Don't forget to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode, and please consider leaving a review. You can find links to our email and social media in the show notes. Please reach out and let's keep the conversation going. Thanks everyone.

This time the writing's on the wall. Change. This war of words we can't defend. Two damaged hearts refuse to mend. Judge this situation's pointless. We're the end every day. It's not a game we need to play. Change. We tried to make things better, repair and rearrange things, but each and every letter spelt out the need for us to open up our minds and hearts to change. Change. There's just no way of knowing if love lives anymore. We turn out the light, then close the door. Change. We tried to make things better.